cast lead for defense

[kennyb]

There are some states full of wussy's. Many do not roll like Tx, Ok, Ar, Miss, La, and others.

You try to steal my car from my driveway I will shoot you if I get the chance! I got a ticket for discharging a firearm in city limits. And it was dropped soon as the Judge saw the case. Not to mention it was on police records that the car had been a target for theft from the day I bought it and brought it home. Stupid cops did not even lift finger prints off the windows that were fresh and bust the perp. NO they told me you have insurance. I have never had a cop do there job when something was stolen or mine was threaten. But you threaten them and all heck breaks loose.

I once stuck a DBL 12ga through a dudes mouth on my neighbors front porch. Was known to be a local thug. Jacked his grill up. Lifted him off his feet and threw him in the front yard busting out his pallet with the barrels. He had a wheel gun in his jacket pocket but would not take his hands out of his pocket. Little did he know I had the SG around the corner of a wall behind me. He took his hands out when he ate a 12ga. Cops treated me like a crimm. Knowing he was a known felon. That issue died the next day when they found his trench coat with a zip 38 in the pocket.

I'm happy to say the new Police chief and Sheriff in the last few years have pulled there heads out and the DA has wised up in my county.

Come on down to the heart land and practice you perp trade. Things are changing real fast.

and when you shoot someone in defense of property (I.E.your car) you will go away...to prison...better brush up on current laws..

 

[oldRoger]

I suspect few minds have been changed here.
I am not certain what anyone’s willingness to defend him/herself has to do with what ammunition he/she chooses to use.
I have never been in criminal court either prosecuted for shooting someone or in civil court being sued because I did. If necessary I will face the consequences when it happens.
I don’t disable safety devices and do use commercial ammunition just to make it harder for the lawyers to find something that I have done wrong.

 

[hamourkiller]

I hand load 38 special/ .357 mag. Most of my cast lead bullets come from a 140 grain SWC lee mold using wheel weights. Are there any thoughts on this load for defensive carry. I keep my 38 special loads at about 850-900 fps. I have never tried an expansion test on the bullet in any type of media. Just food for thought.

Texas Tom, I see nothing wrong with using your reloads as self defense ammo. I will now offer some free advice on how and what to use.

I would get a SWC mold and some good lube that will not kill you powder. Then I would order some lead tin mix from Roto metals to make my bullets from. I think 20 to 1 mix will give your .38 or low .357 good service.

Molds:
I would buy a NOE mold in their RG-2 or RG4 model and cast one of the following bullets

180gr WFN, fits in even short S&W cylinders or a Marlin lever action

A classic 358429 Keith SWC in hpt

Lube would be White label BAC
White Label Lube - Cast Boolits

The two molds mentioned are available
The 180gr WFN is available now
NOE-Moulds on hand for sale #2- - Cast Boolits

The 358429 is available as a groupbuy delivered some time this summer
NOE Small Group Buy (SGB) 358429 168Gr. Keith - Cast Boolits

From my own experience in casting plus what I have learned at castbboolits you should be able to taylor a specific lead hpt to suit your needs. Expansion at low velocity and penetration is why I sugested slightly heavier bullets than you stated originaly.

Hope the info helps.

PS: I figure you are a man grown and quite capable of deciding what ammo to use in violent defense of yourself, others and property. Hope you never have to.

 

[redlevel]

and when you shoot someone in defense of property (I.E.your car) you will go away...to prison...better brush up on current laws..

It all depends on what jurisdiction you are in, even within a state. I love rural South Georgia. Juries, and even prosecutors here tend to have much higher regard for private property rights than in some more liberal parts of the country.

 

[pps]

This pic has been posted before. The one on the right was a hollow pointed 358156 boolit @ 1250fps. The other two are factory loaded 158grainers (I think the far left is fioccii 148gr sjhp) at about the same speed. Shot into rubber mulch.

At snubby velocities expansion might be iffy.

 

[roundgunner]

This pic has been posted before. The one on the right was a hollow pointed 358156 boolit @ 1250fps. The other two are factory loaded 158grainers (I think the far left is fioccii 148gr sjhp) at about the same speed. Shot into rubber mulch.

At snubby velocities expansion might be iffy.

Those expanded but still are not putting a hole in the target as big as a 45/44/40 that fails to expand.

 

[Paul5388]

Here's the infamous Joe Horn case that happened in Pasadena, Texas, just outside of Houston.

Attorney: Pasadena man didn't intend to kill (w/911 call) | Pasadena/Baytown news | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle

"Joe Horn cleared by grand jury in Pasadena shootings"

Joe Horn cleared by grand jury in Pasadena shootings | Chronicle | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle

I don't know where kennyb lives, but it sure isn't in Texas!

Amazingly, I don't think they even asked if he was using factory loads.

 

[pps]

Roundgunner, no argument from me about your logic.

 

[Paul5388]

Long after the .45 or .44 was introduced, the .357, in 1935, was the most powerful handgun in the world. The previous record holder for power was the .44 Colt Walker. So, it seems the much touted cartridge .44s and .45s have always been playing second fiddle.

 

[hamourkiller]

Hollow point SWC or roundnose is old techology that is well understood. Correct hollow point with the correct lead mix will expand at the stated velocity. Penetration becomes an issue, which is why I pointed out some heavier bullets. Lead tin mix with no antimony will expand and hold together.

This same technology will work for 41-44-45 with equal ease. You just have to match alloy and hollowpoint to velocity.

 

[kscardsfan]

I have been struck by lightening 3 times. Where does that leave me?

Lucky, I believe lol

 

[Missionary]

Good morning
I carry my 5 shot with 162 grain SOFT (40-1) propelled by 4 grains Unique. I am not concered about leading and I see none. I do not plan on a long string of fire. I carry one 5 shot reoader in my pocket.
Expansion is excellent for a 38 special. Lead will still put the hurt to any 150 pound + preditor.
Bill Hickok trusted his life to a caliber 36 round ball... I have that plus.

 

[kennyb]

Here's the infamous Joe Horn case that happened in Pasadena, Texas, just outside of Houston.

Attorney: Pasadena man didn't intend to kill (w/911 call) | Pasadena/Baytown news | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle

"Joe Horn cleared by grand jury in Pasadena shootings"

Joe Horn cleared by grand jury in Pasadena shootings | Chronicle | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle

I don't know where kennyb lives, but it sure isn't in Texas!

Amazingly, I don't think they even asked if he was using factory loads.

i miss your point...i referred to to the poster that stated he would shoot someone for messing with his car...the case you referance here involves burglary where a neighbor becomes involved in an effort to help and was placed in a position of harm (according to his statement) that can be a very real and critical differance and has nothing to do with my original statement...think of it this way...would you shoot someone for taking your childs bike?the differance between the bike and the car is monetary value....when you shoot someone and cannot clearly articulate and demonstrate that it was in the defense of death or great bodily harm to you or another....you indeed climb a slippery slope

 

[happyhunter1911]

Tom,
I am new here but figure I'd throw my opinion in here, FWIW. I have done some testing on old 2x4s. Commercial Cast Lead SWC out of a standard 38 do penetrate pretty deep. Much deeper than a hollowpoint. I think in a 38 for use against human antagonist I would stick with a hollowpoint for most cases. If he is shooting at you from behind a 2x4 wall, I'd definitely use a hard cast SWC. Of course you probably will not have the time to change ammo.... The wall thing is pretty unusual so I carry hollowpoints.

As for handloads... my Kimber (am I allowed to say that on the Smith forum?) on my hip is loaded with handloads and has been for many months. I like the Remington 230 Golden Saber bullet. Put many thousand handloads of it down my barrel over the past 7 years. Accurate and feeds well. I have records of the velocity of my handloads: about 20 fps slower than the factory ammo and much more consistent. I can prove my handloads are not "hot". I also KNOW where my ammo hits as I have fired thousands of rounds of it. I also have records of the factory ammo velocity, complete with the squib load and the target with that squib load hitting at a different point. I have had other probs with Remington 22 ammo. I don't know about other makers. I trust Speer enough that it is in my 642 now. But Remington: I don't buy their ammo only their bullets.

Watch your six and you probably won't need to shoot the gun anyway. Get good training with documentation. Go to Ayoobs school, his LFI 1 class is very good. He thoroughly covers when to shoot and when not to. I've been to it, money well spent.

 

[cp1969]

How does protection of property enter the realm of self defense? Self defense, at least in my mind, means protecting yourself or others from bodily harm, not saving someone's DVD player from getting stolen.

In the case where you shoot somebody over anything other than self defense, then I would say the prosecutors ARE going to look at every bit of evidence they can find to see if you were just looking for an excuse to shoot somebody, because you were not threatened with bodily harm.

 

[Paul5388]

The case I posted just shows there are a lot of people that lack an understanding of Texas law.

The two illegals were in possession of $2000 of stolen goods from Joe's neighbor's house. That's $1000 each, if you want to place a value on their lives.

The Grand Jury no billed him, which means there wasn't a case to be made in light of Texas law and he is also immune to civil suits, under the same law.

This is a good lesson in the invalid nature of Massad Ayoob's argument, which really only deals with the absence of GSR (gun shot residue) in the Bias case. GSR means nothing, if the case is no billed, and therefore handloads become a non-issue.

I've had this same argument with Massad himself and demonstrated Bias was a murderer by concocting a super-light load that definitely left GSR on the target at a distance of three or four feet on 4/17/08.

Here's the target with tape measure.

and here's the GSR results at that distance.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Paul,
Don't cloud the issues with facts! When an "EXPERT WITNESS" says that Bias is innocent, he is innocent!

If it was a police officer that was the victim and the "CSI'S" were called in, what would the "WITNESS" have to say then given the evidence used in the Bias case with GSR? No, like you said, Bias is a murderer that snapped when his wife confronted him with a loaded firearm, period. Basically, that's what the jury said too when they pronounced him guilty, and our forum friend keeps promoting this fallacy as fact.

Joe Horn was even told not to shoot by a dispatcher, if I remember correctly, and said something to the effect of "I'm gonna kill him", and still got away with the shooting. I bet there are a lot less robberies in his neighborhood since then too!

 

[flat top]

These are my "in the home" defense loads for my 44 mags. 250 Keith, 16 to 1, with a .250 X .300 hollow point. After hollowpointing the weight is 223 grains. Driven at 1000 fps through numerous layers of denim covered wet phone books, the bullet opens up fast, creates a very large wound channel, and exhibits penetration depths a bit short of three feet at 10 yards. The load is very accurate, hits hard, causes massive damage, and the limited penetration should deminish the possibility of shoot through......................Here in Missouri we have the "Castle Law" which allows the citizen to protect "life and property"...be it in the home, on the property, or, in a vehicle....no license is required. We also have Concealed Carry. In both laws, I have never come across a statute that dictates the type of ammuntion that must be used. I know I am dreaming here, but, it would be nice if all states would tailor their laws to be reciprocal.

 

[kennyb]

The case I posted just shows there are a lot of people that lack an understanding of Texas law.

The two illegals were in possession of $2000 of stolen goods from Joe's neighbor's house. That's $1000 each, if you want to place a value on their lives.

The Grand Jury no billed him, which means there wasn't a case to be made in light of Texas law and he is also immune to civil suits, under the same law.

This is a good lesson in the invalid nature of Massad Ayoob's argument, which really only deals with the absence of GSR (gun shot residue) in the Bias case. GSR means nothing, if the case is no billed, and therefore handloads become a non-issue.

I've had this same argument with Massad himself and demonstrated Bias was a murderer by concocting a super-light load that definitely left GSR on the target at a distance of three or four feet on 4/17/08.

Here's the target with tape measure.

and here's the GSR results at that distance.

non-true bills are an everyday occurance...if the CA/DA is interested...he simply brings it back before another grand jury...becauce a bill is returned "non-true"means little....i'll not beat a dead horse ,but as i said in my original post...when you shoot someone to protect a piece of property.....you will have a slippery slope to climb...and thats true in all 50 states

 

[Erich]

It's "no bill," just for the record. Legal terminology sometimes get tricky. So do legal concepts. I'd recommend everyone talk to a local (or national) expert if they had any questions, and not rely on the perhaps-not-precisely-on-point-to-your-question opinions of someone on the internet.