If you buy a bullet and shoot someone with it, how exactly is the manufacturer liable for anything?
Cast bullets for personal defense?
- Thread starter David LaPell
- Start date
We've beat this to death several times on this forum, I guess everyone that knows about it is as lazy as me and hasn't posted any links.
Anyway, "the don't use reloads for self defense" was started with an article by Masaad Ayoob. Mas, who is a member here, has joined in on several of the discussions and made it clear that the reason he made that statement was that in case you had to defend yourself in court, handloaded ammunition didn't have factory records and samples that could be entered in your behalf. It had nothing to do with any malfeasance from the "barristers".
If your instructor really told you that any ammo maker is going to take the heat off of you because you shot someone with "their" ammo, please tell him I said he's an idiot. They are only responsible for injuries or damage caused by defects in their product.
riverrat38
US Veteran
"Anyway, "the don't use reloads for self defense" was started with an article by Masaad Ayoob. Mas, who is a member here, has joined in on several of the discussions and made it clear that the reason he made that statement was that in case you had to defend yourself in court, handloaded ammunition didn't have factory records and samples that could be entered in your behalf. It had nothing to do with any malfeasance from the "barristers".
I wonder when Masaad said that?
The notion may go back further than his teachings.
I have a copy of "Handgun Digest" from 1991 written by Dean Grennell. He mentions the same thing in his hand loading section. Right after he cautions reloaders not to go commercial, unless they have a chat with their insurance company!
rat
I wonder when Masaad said that?
The notion may go back further than his teachings.
I have a copy of "Handgun Digest" from 1991 written by Dean Grennell. He mentions the same thing in his hand loading section. Right after he cautions reloaders not to go commercial, unless they have a chat with their insurance company!
rat
Just passing along some information, and not endorsing anything. Some of you guys are wound a little tight.
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Skip Sackett
US Veteran
I know it isn't intentional on YOUR part but, if I was to pass on something that was of questionable integrity, or totally inaccurate, or fabricated, to scare the snot out of you so you didn't exercise your God given rights, would you just call me a "little tight" or a liar?
I don't pass things on that have no foundation in truth, um, period............
AABEN
Member
I'm thinking these in some downloaded .44 magnum or specials would ruin a BG's day...
I don't have any loaded right now, but they were great in the 29-5...
Who makes the HP mold? I would like to get one.
dan-g
Member
MIHA;s 360 mold in 158grn
I didn't mean he was the first or only one to ever say it, he wrote an article that appeared in a magazine and then on the internet that sort of went "viral" among the gun forums. He wrote that he worked on a case where the guy went to prison for using handloads, which is where the debate comes in. I have read others saying not to use them because of the attorney bashing, which nobody has ever been able to cite when, where or who, but this was the first time anybody has ever attempted to provide "proof".
I only have a couple things from Dean Grennel and he dosn't mention that in them, does he give an explanation of why he thinks you shouldn't use them for self defense? During our earlier horse beatings the only instances we could find of a shooters choice of ammunition causing any problems in court both involved factory ammo.
By the way, Masaad Ayoob has been around quite awhile, although I believe the case he worked on happened in 1989 or thereabouts and he was involved in the third trial from what I can tell, so his article might have come after Dean Grennels book.
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Erich
Member
You all know that I carry handloads pretty often, but I just thought of another possible arrow in the quiver of the no-handloads-for-carry school. Not my area of law, though, so I'm going to run it past some civil lawyers before saying anything about it here. 
riverrat38
US Veteran
"I only have a couple things from Dean Grennel and he dosn't mention that in them, does he give an explanation of why he thinks you shouldn't use them for self defense? During our earlier horse beatings the only instances we could find of a shooters choice of ammunition causing any problems in court both involved factory ammo."
He just says that a civil trial lawyer can compare the defendant to Jack the Ripper for using evil handloads!
I suspect that the plaintiff has to say something if they have gone to court, and that could include introducing comments made by the defendant on an online forum about the effectiveness of various types of guns and ammo for self defense. Something about a preoccupation with shooting someone. Maybe the defendant could turn the argument around by testifying that he used handloads because the commercial stuff seemed to be too evil.
rat
He just says that a civil trial lawyer can compare the defendant to Jack the Ripper for using evil handloads!
I suspect that the plaintiff has to say something if they have gone to court, and that could include introducing comments made by the defendant on an online forum about the effectiveness of various types of guns and ammo for self defense. Something about a preoccupation with shooting someone. Maybe the defendant could turn the argument around by testifying that he used handloads because the commercial stuff seemed to be too evil.
rat
Skip Sackett
US Veteran
We all just need to work harder in our states to be like Texas! Good shoot, no civil trial. Plain and simple. 
pete950
Member
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We all just need to work harder in our states to be like Texas! Good shoot, no civil trial. Plain and simple.
Skip
Got that right!!!!
Some thoughts on the dead horse:
I was a coroner for 13 years and involved in dozens, if not a hundred or more deaths by gunshot (more self-inflicted than homicides), and never once do I recall the ammunition being used being tracked down as to whether it was reloaded or not, by our office or a police agency. We noted the headstamp on the cases, which chambers were loaded (on revolvers), identified calibers, and very infrequently (usually when I was in a conversation with our forensic pathologist [who is a gun guy] over which bullet weight it might be for said caliber, etc.) bullet weight or design.
In terms of an investigatory tool that would attract any attention, the value of knowing whether the ammo was reloaded or not is worthless, and therefore not noted. If the criminal investigation and prosecution is over, it'd have to be a quick civil atty to request the ammo be saved for possible use in making the argument being discussed. Overall, I guess it's possible, but it's darn unlikely!
I was a coroner for 13 years and involved in dozens, if not a hundred or more deaths by gunshot (more self-inflicted than homicides), and never once do I recall the ammunition being used being tracked down as to whether it was reloaded or not, by our office or a police agency. We noted the headstamp on the cases, which chambers were loaded (on revolvers), identified calibers, and very infrequently (usually when I was in a conversation with our forensic pathologist [who is a gun guy] over which bullet weight it might be for said caliber, etc.) bullet weight or design.
In terms of an investigatory tool that would attract any attention, the value of knowing whether the ammo was reloaded or not is worthless, and therefore not noted. If the criminal investigation and prosecution is over, it'd have to be a quick civil atty to request the ammo be saved for possible use in making the argument being discussed. Overall, I guess it's possible, but it's darn unlikely!
Right on, Brother!
Prior to the lightweight JHP super velocity wonder loads I carried LSWC ammo in my service weapons and LWC in my BU/Off Duty weapons.
Negative complaints.
nawilson
US Veteran
It seems to me that a sharp defense attorney could take a cast bullet at moderate velocity and use it to your advantage...
"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, my client wasn't using super high velocity hollow points that everyone knows will kill a man just for looking at them sideways... he was using a reduced velocity, solid lead bullet. Basically a target load... If he was a psycho killer, don't you think he would have used a high velocity hollow point?"
You know, actually use the public's wrong perceptions to your benefit.
"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, my client wasn't using super high velocity hollow points that everyone knows will kill a man just for looking at them sideways... he was using a reduced velocity, solid lead bullet. Basically a target load... If he was a psycho killer, don't you think he would have used a high velocity hollow point?"
You know, actually use the public's wrong perceptions to your benefit.
Skip Sackett
US Veteran
I suppose it would be easier to prove the perp hadn't been picked up and deposited 3ft to the rear of where he was shot with said target load!
hahaha
Thanks rat, this is a good example of why not to take legal advice from a gun writer. A civil trial lawyer is going to make you out to be Jack the Ripper regardless of what ammo you use, that is his job. I don't believe JTR made his own weapon either.
I think this is the last horse beating, if so it should have links to some earlier ones.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/183812-reloads-law.html
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