Cast bullets for personal defense?

SAY, WHAT?

The .41 mag was my favorite duty gun and I usually carried a 3" 657 in a custom made, speed draw holster. My duty load was a 215 gr. SWC cast from wheel weights in a Lyman #410610 mold, over 14.0 grains of Bluedot.

Jelly,
I have to get this straight. Are you saying that as a police officer, constable or sheriff's deputy, that you carried handloads ON DUTY?

When was this? 1890 what? Surely it wasn't in this century seeing as it is TABOO to carry handloads as self defense loads! No to mention how litigious it would be for a municipality should you have to shoot someone!

YOU MUST BE JUST KIDDING, RIGHT?
 
I know a well-respected LEO member of this very forum who carries handloads on duty. :) He very reasonably might not care to discuss it in public, though.
 
Skip, I can't tell if your laughing or if your head is spinning.
 
Well, since I'm retired now I will...

For many years I carried Silvertips in my duty guns, just because I liked them. Then I started on a small little department that didn't have their own requalification range officer and depended on someone from other agencies to requalify us. This was a nightmare because they were always cancelling out on us at the last minute. Then one day the chief called and said that we were going to qualify the next day, that was the only day the guy he found could do it. Trouble was it didn't leave me enough time to load up some practice ammo. ( I shoot a lot.) So, I had to shoot up all my Silvertips, plus some heavier loads I had on hand, to qualify.

When I went to re-order some more I wondered why I couldn't just carry my practice loads, which were made to simulate the recoil of the Silvertips, because I liked them better anyway.

The departments policy manual had nothing about what kind of ammunition we carried and the only thing about which firearms we carried was that the chief had to approve it. The Chief said he didn't care as long as the county prosecutor said there was nothing wrong with it, and he (the prosecutor) said there were no laws against it that he knew of.

By the way, I retired in 2007 and never heard anything about the "taboo" until I realized there were internet gun forums, which was in 2005.
 
Round and round we go............................

We have a local LEO that up until just a few months ago did the same thing. He carried a M629 that was engraved to the hilt and stocked with some 180gr bullets loaded to the maximum with 2400 or H110/W296, can't remember.

The funniest part of that whole story is that Mas goes to his range to teach classes and teaches against ordinary folks doing the same! hahahahaha

Oh, wait, my head is spinning! hahaha
 
I know a lot of folks are very proud of their handloads, but in my 30 years of shooting experience I have witnessed multiple times more failures with handloads compared to factory loaded ammo.

Interestingly, I recall reading about a fellow who, after a failure of factory ammo at an inopportune moment, would only carry his own handloads for self-defense. He would carefully seat the primers with a hand-seating tool, making sure to feel the primer legs bottom out without crushing the primer pellet. He would test the ammo for fit and function, and then mark it so he knew it was his and had passed his tests. Then, he would shoot it up every year or two and make a fresh batch, so he knew the ammo wasn't old... Puts an interesting spin on things, doesn't it?? I have a small collection of factory mistakes at my loading bench, including a case with no flashhole between the primer pocket and the powder chamber...


As far as carrying cast, I can't due to dept. policy, but in the right calibers I wouldn't have any qualms doing so. Here's a Lyman 358156 hollow-pointed for me by Buchshot over at Cast Boolits:
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This one is my "Winchester" HP design that I based off the curvature of some Winchester JHPs (in a different caliber, actually).
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A cup point for high velocity HPs in the 357 Mag loadings (smaller HP prevents over-expansion/disintegration of the HP at high velocity).
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Replica of the standard Lyman HP pin shape for comparison testing.
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The reason I sent the mould to him for HPing. This is a combination of my thoughts and another CB member named BEN who is an excellent caster and experimenter. I came up with an idea, and Buckshot pointed me at a picture of what he had already done for BEN, and I changed the tip of the pin at the bottom of the cavity and this is what Buckshot sent me. This should open at very low velocities, like 600-700 fps. I imagine it would explode like a Glaser safety slug at high 357 Mag velocities. (This is actually bad, because it significantly impairs penetration.)

One of these days I'm going to get a gelatin test done on these four variations for comparison testing.



The interesting thing about the OP's question is that the dead-soft pure Lead RB and Minie ball garnered a good reputation for killing because soft lead tends to hold together while expanding, even without a HP. So, if you stick to low velocity, and a very soft alloy (like 95-5 lead-to-tin), a SWC or something with a mild HP will still expand, and if it's heavy enough, it will penetrate. I'd take the cup point above out of 95-5 in a 200gr bullet mould and bet it would expand, and penetrate and do a good job of putting down an attacker. Not dissimilar to the WWII British 380-200 revolver load, but with dead-soft bullet with small HP cavity...
 
Experts say you should practice with carry load. How long that box going to last?

Don't know how many self-defense shootings you guys get into on a regular basis , but 1 box of top shelf factory hollow points should last the average person a lifetime.
 
Boys, boys, boys . . . Are we gonna have to send you to your rooms for a time out?

All I can say is that FL law states the use of a firearm is deadly force--not use of a firearm loaded with (name your ammo).
 
Experts say you should practice with carry load. How long that box going to last?

Practicing w/ an equiv carry load. You gain nothing by shooting expensive JHP for practice. Just load/shoot equiv cheap FMJ or lead loads. All you are trying to mimic is recoil & POI. You should already know your chosen SD ammo functions. So yes, 50rds of high end factory should last anyone a min of 2yrs.
Choosing factory vs handloads is a personal decision. For me, I see no advantage, none, not one, in choosing a handload over factory ammo but cost, UNLESS it's for an obscure caliber or something that makes my carrry guns choice a better tool for the job. Like downloaded 44mags for when my backpack gun comes into the city.
 
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I know the hollowpoint is supposedly king for personal defense, but why not cast bullets too? I don't mean the old lead round nose jobs like the .38 Special's 158 grainer that the factory used to load, but how about some decent bullets like the #358156? The #358429? What about the #429421 in hollowpoint or cast in a .44 Special? What about the #452424 in .45 Colt? I would think all of these cast not too hard would be ideal for personal defense and would cost alot less than jacketed hollow points.

Having read all the responses to this OP, I will not add fuel to the fire of opinion. I will however say that I have used cast lead SWC bullets for 30 years in revolvers. And... I've used them in .45 ACP loads for 1911 type pistols. I like them. In my experience, they work very well both in accuracy and on target effectiveness. Hard cast bullets penetrate like crazy. I've not had any that expanded except when they hit dirt/rock. I've used the Speer swaged lead bullets. At low velocity, they are very accurate. When pushed to hard, they have leaded my barrels.

Currently a Beretta 92FS sits on our nightstand. Loaded with JHP ammo it is well suited to the task of HD/SD. When I can find and buy some more Speer 200 gr. Gold Dot JHP .44 Special ammo, then my S&W 21-4 will be placed on my nightstand and the Beretta will go by her in the den in her knitting bag. Lead SWC bullets would be fine. But I figure the JHP's stand a better chance of being effective if it should become necessary to use a firearm in SD/HD.
 
HP's vs. SWC's

In all of my defense handguns, I alternate hollow points with flat points or SWC's depending upon caliber. In 5.56, I alternate M855's with Sierra 65 SBT's.

If one don't get' em, the other will.

Just because I'm paranoid does not mean they are not out to get me.

S/F.
 
Judging the way my cast bullets drop deer (which are man sized animals), I think that I prefer cast bullets. However, people wear clothing, unlike animals, and the fabric inhibits penetration, so I believe the most effective anti-personnel bullet is a polymer tipped hollow point.
That said....I think if you are looking for personal defense....it would be prudent to use COMMERCIAL LOADS.......to avoid any legal issues.
I carry loads from CorBon like the DPX (All Copper) or the new Hornady Personal Defense loads. The CorBon are probably the most accurate loads I have shot, and I practice with loads that I work up to replicate the CorBon.
Terry
 
That said....I think if you are looking for personal defense....it would be prudent to use COMMERCIAL LOADS.......to avoid any legal issues.

Terry
Terry,
Which legal issues would those be?

The ones that anti-gunners threaten to take away our rights without any law being passed or the opinion of some guy that claims they are an expert on the subject that gets paid by ammo manufacturers?

Just wondering and would like some clarification, and, um, proof. ;)
 
Buffalo Bore

Skip,

You are truly a man after my own heart - oh, wait you were a gyrene too.

Re: using commercial ammo for defense - I have chrono'd Buffalo Bore out of a lot of guns and it is generally hotter than I like to reload. It always meets or exceeds its' advertised velocities, even out of 1-7/8" J Frames. I have been reloading since 1976 and am a mechanical engineer, so I know a little about testing stuff.

Only in the various People's Republics is a prosecutor going to try to indict an honest citizen for capping a dirt bag. Most prosecutors are going to breathe a silent "Thank You" for getting rid of a creep that they couldn't put away.

If a prosecutor is concerned about using hand loads, my response would be that I could buy Buffalo Bore and have a lot hotter ammo. Also, I could have used a .45 or a .357 or a 12 gauge instead of a 9mm or a .38 . I have never had a problem with my defense hand loads. I do 100% weighing and QC inspection on every round. I have had a few (Federal .45 Hydra Shock) that were duds. God help someone with a primer only round at the beginning of a double tap.

Skip, please PM or e-mail me - couple of things I want to discuss off the grid.

S/F,

RAS
 
In regards to "deadly force," Florida Statute 776.06 (776 covers justifiable use of force) states:

Deadly force.—(1) The term "deadly force" means force that is likely to cause death or great bodily harm and includes, but is not limited to:
(a) The firing of a firearm in the direction of the person to be arrested, even though no intent exists to kill or inflict great bodily harm; and
(b) The firing of a firearm at a vehicle in which the person to be arrested is riding.

Note that no where in there does it state "firearms loaded with factory loads only" (or otherwise in regards to any type of ammo). The use of the firearm is deadly force, not the ammo.
 
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I think if a firearm is used to defend ones life then deadly force is justified or you will have much more to worry about than handloads. I do not see how any load can kill deader than another.
 
I was advised in my CCW class to NEVER ever carry handloaded ammunition. If you end up using it in a self defense situation, that will needlessly give you exposure for some poop-heel lawyer to convince a gullible jury that you concocted super deadly double secret probation ammo designed to cause needless suffering and injury or death to his poor, misunderstood client (who had a difficult childhood). If you use factory made ammo, the manufacturer is liable for that.

So the theory goes, anyway. FWIW, YMMV, ETC.
 
I think American culture is obsessed with techincal fixes to behavioral issues. In this case, the technical fix is a 'magic' bullet (Golden Saber, Hydro-shok, Nuclear-warhead tip, etc, etc) that will make a 90 degree around cover, knock one's opponent on their derriere, then phone for the police. The behavioral issue is learning to shoot accurately.

Personally when I'm carrying a .357 with handloads utilizing the aforementioned 358156 bullets I feel I am as well armed...as my training.
 
I was advised in my CCW class to NEVER ever carry handloaded ammunition. If you end up using it in a self defense situation, that will needlessly give you exposure for some poop-heel lawyer to convince a gullible jury that you concocted super deadly double secret probation ammo designed to cause needless suffering and injury or death to his poor, misunderstood client (who had a difficult childhood). If you use factory made ammo, the manufacturer is liable for that.

So the theory goes, anyway. FWIW, YMMV, ETC.

Please site case law where this happened just one time, please.
 
I was advised in my CCW class to NEVER ever carry handloaded ammunition. If you end up using it in a self defense situation, that will needlessly give you exposure for some poop-heel lawyer to convince a gullible jury that you concocted super deadly double secret probation ammo designed to cause needless suffering and injury or death to his poor, misunderstood client (who had a difficult childhood). If you use factory made ammo, the manufacturer is liable for that.

So the theory goes, anyway. FWIW, YMMV, ETC.

Not your fault for thinking this way. The myth has spread far and wide to the point "We All Know" that it's true. It is being passed on for the most part by well-meaning but uninformed gunners. If they want to carry factory-only SD ammo, vaya con Dios.

The problem will come when some jackal actually uses it in a prosecutorial setting because they heard about it at their CCW class. Instructors should be held to a higher standard. Unfortunately, they are not.
 
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