what if catridge with no powder was shot

[happymech1]

I loaded about 600rds 38spl last night on a single stage press. Actually only gave them powder charge and a bullet last night did all other steps earlier.

I found my self trying to remeber once if i had put powder in case after crimping a bullet in. I shook it could hear nothing so i set it asside and pulled it apart when i was done and i did miss powder in that case.

So my question is what would happen if i missed that fact and shot it out my revolver?

has anybody shot one before im sure it alot quiter. but would it leave the case or the barrel?

[ken158]

The bullet may stick between the cylinder and the forcing cone locking up the gun. The bullet may lodge in the barrel, you not know it, another round is fired and BOOM! You now have a worthless gun and may also get yourself hurt by flying metal. If you cant feel the powder when you shake it, take a round you know has powder, weigh it and then weigh your other rounds.

[borntoraisehogs]

Originally Posted by ken158

The bullet may stick between the cylinder and the forcing cone locking up the gun. The bullet may lodge in the barrel, you not know it, another round is fired and BOOM! You now have a worthless gun and may also get yourself hurt by flying metal. If you cant feel the powder when you shake it, take a round you know has powder, weigh it and then weigh your other rounds.

It sure does. Same as if you have contaminated rounds. Listen for unusual sounds such as softer report or hissing, and don't pull the trigger again . Thanks for bring this up, you may have saved a forum member from injury and damage to his weapon.

[stevieboy]

I've had the experience. I was shooting a friend's reloads and I fired a round. Instead of "boom" I heard a soft "pfft". The bullet lodged halfway into the forcing cone, locking the cylinder. We were able to push the bullet back into the chamber with a cleaning rod.

[Ceapea]

Originally Posted by stevieboy

I've had the experience. I was shooting a friend's reloads and I fired a round. Instead of "boom" I heard a soft "pfft". The bullet lodged halfway into the forcing cone, locking the cylinder. We were able to push the bullet back into the chamber with a cleaning rod.

This happened to me too...three times! One was a 38 spl., it made it into the barrel, so I could have pulled off another one, but didn't. Second one was a 380 ACP that went half way into the 3.5" barrel. The third was a 45 in my then new, Sig P220, it also went half way down the barrel. In all cases, I was aware of the failure and was able to stop shooting in time. In two of the instances, it got the range officer moving and yelling for me to stop.
I discovered the 45 blockage alone as I didn't see a hole where it was supposed to be! Luckily, I was shooting at a relatively clean target.

As a side, but somewhat related note, I found out that my procedure for charging and seating is different than most. From what I've read, most people load the powder charge into the cases and put them into the loading block. Once they have 50 or 100 in the block, they seat the bullets. I guess that this is necessary when using a progressive press, or at least a turret press. Since I never read that, that is "the" way to do it, I don't. It was/is more natural for me to take the prepped cases and charge the case and seat the individual bullet in one step. This is of course working with a single stage press, so I guess that is the reason. It does seem like that would be a little more "safe", as I would like to think that, and try to, check each case as it leaves the powder drop on it's way to the seating die.
Good info here. Thanks.

[Ceapea]

After my post above, I read several more times, in this thread, that even people using single stage presses fill up a loading block with charged cases. I may be wrong, being new, and I don't want to develop bad habits, but it makes more sense to me to charge the case, look at it as I move it to the press and seat the bullet, one at a time. This is just a naturally occurring motion for me. I do use loading blocks, but I set up my prepped cases in one (primer up), and put the completed rounds in another. Am I doing something wrong? Am I setting myself up for some unforeseen to me, problem?

[gwalchmai]

Originally Posted by Ceapea

As a side, but somewhat related note, I found out that my procedure for charging and seating is different than most. From what I've read, most people load the powder charge into the cases and put them into the loading block. Once they have 50 or 100 in the block, they seat the bullets. I guess that this is necessary when using a progressive press, or at least a turret press.

With a progressive, the empty case enters the first station and a finished round exits the last. Loading blocks are not used at all.

When using a single stage, it's easier (for me at least) to charge the entire block as one step and then seat them all in another step, then crimp in a final step. That gives several points at which to check powder - when charging each round, a group inspection in the block after they're all charged, and then one more as the bullet is placed into the case mouth.

[gwalchmai]

Originally Posted by stevieboy

I've had the experience. I was shooting a friend's reloads and I fired a round. Instead of "boom" I heard a soft "pfft". The bullet lodged halfway into the forcing cone, locking the cylinder. We were able to push the bullet back into the chamber with a cleaning rod.

That sounds pretty scary. Has that guy blown himself up yet?

[Skip Sackett]

From experience: It stops in the forcing cone on an M586. If it does, that is a good thing. Locks the gun up, no subsequent shots follow them down the tube cause you can't turn the cylinder. If you shoot it out of the barrel, and the firearm is a good quality one, most likely you will "ring" the barrel. Many bullseye shooter still shoot theirs!

Weight will tell you nothing as cases and bullets can vary 1gr or more. Most likely your charge isn't more than 3-5gr in itself.

Get a bullet puller and go to town. That is the only safe way you can know you have powder in each and every one. You can't shoot them until you reload them though!

Maybe by that time you can figure out how on a single stage setup you missed powder in a case and keep that from happening again!

Have fun and be safe.

[JSR III]

My advice to all reloaders, new and experienced is to know the weight of a completed round. This can easily be determined by placing an empty case, a primer, a powder charge and a bullet on your scale.

When you have completed your reloading effort, place the loaded rounds on the scale in whatever groups your scale will accomodate. 5 rounds 10 rounds 50 rounds etc. Then multiply the individual component weight by that number and it should match the combined weight on your scale. You can also do this individually, but most folks find this too time consuming. Should the combined weight not match the added up weight for the number of cartridges that you are weighing, set them aside and weigh them individually or in smaller groups.

Firing an under charged or worse yet an over charged cartridge can be devastating to both you and your beloved firearm. The firearm can be replaced, however, not so easy for the hand or the eye.

We are all human and mistakes happen. Unfortunately, this is one area where you really need to be perfect. Do not watch TV, text or talk on the phone while reloading. Pay attention and double check every step.

As has been stated, a primer only round may go bang but most likely the bullet will not leave the barrel. If you are shooting rapid fire, which should only be done if you are practicing for a rapid fire match, you may not notice that the 3rd round only went pop instead of bang. Unfortunately, when round 4 is shot, you will usually hear a much louder bang and then may have to go looking for your fingers.

PS: smith crazy raises a very valid point about weights, however, when I reload, I weigh cases and bullets and group them in like weight groups. If I have either a commercial bullet that is way off or even one of my own cast bullets, I set it aside, as gross weight discrepancies will throw off your accuracy quite a bit. Certainly, if I find a round that is off by 3 or 4 grains, it goes to the bullet puller.

[cjw3]

Originally Posted by smith crazy

From experience: It stops in the forcing cone on an M586. If it does, that is a good thing. Locks the gun up, no subsequent shots follow them down the tube cause you can't turn the cylinder. If you shoot it out of the barrel, and the firearm is a good quality one, most likely you will "ring" the barrel. Many bullseye shooter still shoot theirs!

Weight will tell you nothing as cases and bullets can vary 1gr or more. Most likely your charge isn't more than 3-5gr in itself.

Get a bullet puller and go to town. That is the only safe way you can know you have powder in each and every one. You can't shoot them until you reload them though!

Maybe by that time you can figure out how on a single stage setup you missed powder in a case and keep that from happening again!

Have fun and be safe.

I totally agree. Cases and bullets will vary in weight too much to rely on for this.

I charge fifty at a time in a loading block, then go down the line and look in each one individually. It doesn't take as long as it sounds, and so far me and my stuff are still in one piece.

[ColColt]

I can't vouch for a revolver as I've never had it happen. I have, however, had a dud round from CorBon in .40 caliber that didn't go bang. It was in a G23 Glock. The striker fell and left it's mark but no action.

I've also had a squib in a 4566TSW from Federal...no or very little powder. The gunsmith at the range had to drive the bullet out of the barrel as it lodged just ahead of the chamber. I'm beginning to think the only reliable loads are my own. These two instances never happened with my reloads.

[happymech1]

Originally Posted by smith crazy

From experience: It stops in the forcing cone on an M586. If it does, that is a good thing. Locks the gun up, no subsequent shots follow them down the tube cause you can't turn the cylinder. If you shoot it out of the barrel, and the firearm is a good quality one, most likely you will "ring" the barrel. Many bullseye shooter still shoot theirs!

Weight will tell you nothing as cases and bullets can vary 1gr or more. Most likely your charge isn't more than 3-5gr in itself.

Get a bullet puller and go to town. That is the only safe way you can know you have powder in each and every one. You can't shoot them until you reload them though!

Maybe by that time you can figure out how on a single stage setup you missed powder in a case and keep that from happening again!

Have fun and be safe.

what the heck does "ring" the barrel mean?

Ok I can shake and hear if there is powder. so I will check them all that way.

I moved the reloading stuff from garage into the house to a small desk .

press was to my near right, the brass was to rear right, the powdermeasure was to the left rear and bullets where left near.

I was realoading in to tight/cluter space. I should have had to cross over the podwer measure to get to press. that would have helped,

I think I will also use loading block. that way i can charge a whole block and shine light down all at once.

I alway use block while loading rifle. franky i dont find it cost effective to reload single stage pistol. i just happened to have most of parts already.

Oh yeah to those with experience Im sure you must have notice a slight difference in the BANG. thay alone would prompr me to unload and inspect.

[john traveler]

"Ringing" the barrel means firing a live round through a barrel obstruction.

The fired bullet momentarily has no place to go, and the metal pushes outward, bulging the barrel. Sometimes it's a lump noticeable from the outside. Sometimes it shows only as an interior "ring" when viewed carefully.

By the way, firing a gun with a bore obstruction can be very dangerous. In muscular calibers or full-power rifle cartridges, it can result in a burst barrel, blown breech block, or instant disassembly of the action. The strangest one was a foreign military rifle where the barrel threads were completely sheared off and blew the barrel down range.

[gwalchmai]

I look in the case after the powder drops and make sure I see powder. Works pretty well.

[dkizer22]

I have had it happen, many years ago. 4" model 28 the bullet was sticking out the end of the barrel like in a cartoon. In a 2" model 36 the bullet bounced off a dogs head. I am of the school that weighing will not work with the lighter target loads.

[Skip Sackett]

John,
I like to look at those barrels that look like Elmer Fudd's shotgun after Bugs got done with putting his carrot in it!

I saw a Ruger Super Blackhawk in 44Mag that had it's barrel just like that! Could you imagine? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YIKES!


Mechanic,

As John has said, a "ringed" barrel has had a bullet chase a stuck one. There are a lot of shooters that have one and may not even know it! Unless you are the only one on the firing line, don't count on being able to hear your dud. You may not shoot competition but with hearing protection on and shooting light target loads in a heavy revolver, you just may miss the squib all together.

Listen, shooters more experienced than you or I have had it happen. Don't think you will be the ONE able to hear a squib.

I was shooting PPC awhile back. Rapid fire at 21'. I had a squib and it didn't exit the cylinder/forcing cone area. The range officer, who was standing right next to me heard it and yelled. Had he not yelled, and the cylinder would have turned, I would have "ringed" that barrel that night. Fortunately, the cylinder locked up.

Hope this helps.

[OKFC05]

"If it goes POP, STOP!"
Straight out of the Range Officer's training manual.
It's called a SQUIB, and if you shoot another round after it, the least you get is a damaged gun. Maybe personal injury.

At a sectional USPSA match last year, saw a shooter fire the second shot with 4 ROs screaming at him STOP! STOP!.
Blew the gun apart, but he still had all his fingers and most of his skin.
I really like the electronic earmuffs that allow the shooter to hear sounds like the POP of a squib or an RO calling STOP....

You're right to re-evaluate your loading procedures when you get a squib, to minimize the chance of a repeat. It is vital to visually confirm a case has powder before seating a bullet.

[Steve C]

Do yourself a favor and get a loading block. Set the cases in the block and charge them. Take the batch under a good light and look in the cases to make sure there is powder and the levels are the same to avoid double charges. This is standard practice when loading on a single stage.

[ajpelz]

Originally Posted by Steve C

Do yourself a favor and get a loading block. Set the cases in the block and charge them. Take the batch under a good light and look in the cases to make sure there is powder and the levels are the same to avoid double charges. This is standard practice when loading on a single stage.

This is what I do...

[happymech1]

I went to a quite room last night shook them all one at a time all had powder.

I also do have a reloading block and have used it evertime up untill now, but I was looking to speed up the process and went right from measure to press. I wont do that again.

Thanks for all the info.
michael

[growr]

Interestingly enough, in my over 22 years of competitive shooting and being an instructor I have never seen a squib load make it far enough into the barrel to allow the cylinder to turn or the slide to go fully into battery.

I know it happens.....just have never actually seen one.

Had a student in the last class shooting his own reloads in his revolver that had a squib load.....what a great teaching opportunity for the class....being able to actually show them a real squib load and how to properly take care of it in a revolver.

No way THAT cylinder was going to turn....locked up solid. Had to use my brass rod to drive the bullet back into the casing and then open the cylinder ( S&W Model 29) to clear the gun.

Randy

[Skip Sackett]

Not to muddy the water too much but a squib can have powder in it too, just not enough. That is where the "ringed" barrels come from most likely. 1.5gr instead of 2.7gr or something like that. Enough to send them down the tube a bit.

FWIW

[frankw]

I have had it happen to me and have seen it a good many times as an IDPA Safety Officer.
A Progressive Loader is involved many times but not always.
If I am loading revolver hunting loads, I prepare and primer 100 cases max, That is about my limit. Then later I will charge all 100 cases with powder in a loading block. Visually inspect with a good light and then seat all the bullets and crimp. I find this to work fairly fast.
I load a lot on a Lee classic Turret, and before I realized it, a few rounds were not getting a full charge of powder. I was double checking with a scale every 10-15 rounds but never found a light load but they were there.
Every one made it out of the cylinder, most made it out of the barrel but a few stuck. The sound was enough to alert me not to fire again.
I found and fixed the problem and checked the powder in every case for the next two or three hundred rounds and everything has been OK since.
Those were my first squibs in 30 years of reloading but all before were on a single stage press.
You just have to always be cautious when reloading.

[David Sinko]

A few years ago I was shooting a match with my 625. I remember the bullet was the Berry 185 gr. HBRN, the goofy RN plated bullet with the hollow base that is supposed to duplicate the profile of 230 gr. ball. I don't remember what powder I was using, but I know it was supposed to be loaded to 130 PF. So I shoot and as far as I can tell the gun goes click, so I shoot again and make a perfect head shot. After I unload and show clear, the range officer nervously tells me that all the bystanders heard the primer pop but I was shooting so fast that he couldn't stop me before I fired the next shot. Well, they all have electronic hearing protection and I don't so I start to think. I didn't hear the primer pop or I would've stopped, so I try to figure out what happend. The offending case was black with soot so something fired but there was no recoil at all and it felt like a misfire. I can't prove it, but I suspect I somehow loaded one without powder (I don't remember if it was on the 550 or the 650). It obviously cleared the forcing cone and I must've shot it out with the next round. That next round went where it was supposed to go and nothing felt out of place when I shot. No part of my 625 was damaged at all. I don't suggest you make a habit of it, but it seems it is possible to screw up big time and get away with it.

Dave Sinko

[jepp2]

The only "squib" I have ever encountered was with factory ammo. It was Remington 22 Jet and was fired in a Model 53 S&W. It did lodge the bullet about 1 inch down the barrel from the cylinder. Well beyond the forcing cone. From the sound, I believe it had no powder only the primer. And with the smaller diameter, I would expect it to go further down the barrel than a larger case/caliber.

I have read many times that you can't weigh your finished rounds to check for proper powder loading. Folks always say the bullets and brass vary too much. For pistol, that isn't my experience. I have checked the weights of finished rounds and have not found the variation of bullets and brass to be enough to not allow me to check for proper powder charge. YMMV. I AM NOT suggesting this should be your practice, just sharing some data that at least for the loaded cartridges I weighed, I did not see what others have stated many time.

[ancient-one]

After I get fifty powdered in the block I look with a light for any variations. It does not take long and leaves no doubt.

[Andy Griffith]

Also, not to change the subject but light loads and jacketed bullets usually end up with squibs.

When a new reloader puts together a load meant for a cast or swaged bullet, and substitutes a jacketed bullet instead the result is usually a ringed barrel.

[oldRoger]

A friends uncle tried to sell me a very nice M27, beautiful gun, except had a nice bulge, no, not a ring a definite bulge almost exactly half way down the barrel, looked like a new factory S&W feature..
He was a sheriff’s deputy and the trustees at the jail reloaded their range ammunition, except sometimes they “missed” the powder, and sometimes the officer missed the pop no bang.

Watch closely if your eyes are open sometimes you see a lack of smoke, that is usually what other people notice, be sensitive to recoil, and listen as well as you can.

I have found that with lead bullets and light loads of Bullseye (2.7-3.0) it is very hard to sort for no powder by weight, unless you do a lot of presorting and grouping.
So if I think I missed one I pull a lot of bullets. Shaking never worked for me but I am from the old no earplug school (not any longer, back then who knew?).

Oh, and the skirts will separate from a 148 gr, HBWC, and may cause the same problem. The skirt comes off, next bullet stops, and bamm!

In an auto loader, frequently the barrel will split rather then ring, in rapid fire drills sometimes you can’t stop quickly enough, and your day is ruined.

[Fishslayer]

I fired a powderless .357 with a CCI Small Pistol primer & 158gr LSWC. The boolit stuck in the CB gap. It made a kinda "Pffffft." Very obvious something was wrong.

If a bullet sticks in the barrel & ya don't catch it, bad things happen.

[Gun Smoke]

I had it happen with a brand new S&W 1911....bought 2 boxes of reloaded no name range ammo and the first box shot fine but into the second box my son was shooting the pistol and had a fail to feed...I looked at it and tried to chamber a factory round and it wouldnt go into battery either so I put the gun up and shot other pistols that trip...When I took the gun apart to figure out what was wrong it was easy to see the problem was a bullet lodged in the barrel......Thanks be to God that bullet didn't go down another 1/8th inch which would have allowed the next round to chamber and fire leading to a KA-BOOM...I will no longer buy reloads from the range and only shoot the ones I load and am sure of....My son and I both learned a lesson that day and when shooting now if ANYTHING feels wrong to stop firing and see what the problem is !!!...

[Murdock]

Unfortunately, I speak from deep experience with this squib thing.

For over 20 years I used a Lee Progressive 1000 in .45ACP. I had high confidence in the quality of the loads this press threw because it had done well for me for over two decades. One of the reasons I use a progressive is that it makes it more difficult to fail to throw a powder charge.

But it happens. Recently I experienced a problem where my powder measure was randomly sticking in the charge position, and was not returning to rest under spring tension. I had loaded the batch to use in a defensive shooting school in a neighboring state.

Simple wear? I'm not sure, but the press did serve me well for over 20 years and about 35,000 rounds. Be that as it may, about one round in every 10 or 12 was bad. I randomly checked my loaded rounds for feeding and firing at my backyard range after loading about 800 rounds, but did not catch the problem.

This caused me major difficulty at the school. I brought two 1911s with me to the course, in case one broke, and both failed early in the second day of training. Quite honestly, I didn't think to stick my little finger into the chamber to check for a squib. I thought I was just getting failures to feed, and glancing at the open end of the chamber, I couldn't see anything there.

Because of the pace and pressure of the course I couldn't take the time to analyze the problem. The "experts" at the course all told me my problem was that 1911s won't feed SWC bullets, and that I needed to buy a plastic gun to correct the problem. Sure. OK.

I borrowed a plastic 9mm from somebody just to finish the course. There wasn't any rhubarb pie to get the taste of shame and humiliation out of my mouth.

In my 1911s the squibs would prevent the feeding of the next round, because the bullets would stick in the throat as they began to engage the rifling.

The bullet puller is very, very tedious.

Anyway, I switched to a Dillon 650 and immediately added the optional low/high powder sensor to it. I also notice that I can see the cases much better in the Dillon, which helps a great deal with visual verification.

[djml66]

It happens once to me with 357sig. I was firing a Glock and the difference in recoil/report was noticeable enough that I stopped. Of course it didn't hurt that the round wasn't ejected the bullet was just barely into the rifling, so I could drive it out backwards with a dowel.

I was lucky. If this happened in a competitive environment, the adrenalin might cause one to just rack the slide and fire again