I have a stash of the old 200 gr Speer "Flying Ashtray" bullets that I'd like to reload to get top velocity from. Speer's manual gives a velocity of 984 with 7.3 gr of Unique and 967 from 7.0 gr of Universal. These seem to be the top two(excluding Blue Dot) contenders. I don't want to go max but close to it to reach a 950-1000 fps from a 5 inch barrel.

The data Speer shows for this weight bullet was taken using a Sig P220 so, I'm assuming a 4506 with a somewhat longer barrel would give the above velocity without having to get too close to max. Can anyone recommend these powders or another that would give safely the velocities mentioned?

I have a few boxes of those also. part # 4477.

I wrote to Speer (ATK) and he gave me the load data you have for the Unique max of 7.3grs and Bullseye max of 5.8 grs.
He did not tell me the test barrel used at the time but they got 934fps out of the 5.8grs of Bullseye, and 985 from the Unique.

If you want that velocity then you will need to go max. Why not?

Load up to the cannelure. Should be OAL of 1.155.

They were used in the 45 Colt also.

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Still Running Against the Wind

Yep, that's the one. Speer told me any load shown in their manual for the current 200 gr bullets would also work well for the 4477. I measured the OAL of some of the old CorBon 200 gr loads and they check out at exactly that length...1.155" and that's the length I've been using for reloads.

A great bullet, IMO, and I hate it's demise.

I have a box of those. I'm saving them. I don't have any idea what I'm saving them for. I just know I'm saving them. Maybe I'll load up a dozen or two and then save the loaded rounds. I don't know what I'd be saving them for, but I'd be saving them.

I don't know if there's any published loads for that bullet with Power Pistol, but you should look for some. Power Pistol is an awesome powder for "+P" sort of 45 ACP loads. I use it often with 230gr JHPs of various types.

FWIW, 30 years ago I used 7.5gr of Unique with that bullet to get right at 1000 fps out of 5" 1911s.

The current Speer manual does list 7.3 gr of Unique with their 200 gr bullets and that would work likewise with the old style 200 gr. I've used Unique with it as well-just don't recall the charge right off.

Power Pistol list 8.3 gr as max for this bullet for a velocity of 952, according to the manual. That was taken with a 4 inch barrel, however so you could expect a bit more from a 5 inch of course...perhaps close to 1000 fps. However, that is a maximum charge per Speer.

I just checked my old loading data and used 7.2 gr of Unique back then and 9.2 gr of AA #5. I don't know what sort of velocity I had with those loads as I didn't have access to a chronograph then.

9.7 grs. of HS6 is a dandy +P load for the flying ashtray-should turn out around 1050fps depending upon individual gun and barrel length

I have used 7.5 grains of Unique for about 20 years as my main load for the 200 grain H&G #68 cast swc bullet in the .45 ACP, in both revo and auto. I got that load from John Taffin years ago, and it has always been a good one. It is a +P load. I have a 22 lb Wolffe variable rate recoil spring in my 1911 BTW.

I have used the same load with the Speer 200HP "flying ashtray" in my 1911 SA many, many times with never a hitch, and it shows right at 1005- 1020 fps on my Oehler 35P depending on temp, from the 5" Wilson SS match barrel. It clocked about 40-50 fps slower from my first 4506.

I hope this helps.

ditto BlackTalon, Power Pistol is great for +P loads 9mm and .45acp

I am doing the same thing. Why do we do that? I'm just saving them cause I am.

Maybe because they are just to neat to shoot cause if we do, then we won't be saving them.

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Still Running Against the Wind

There seem to be a lot of people that like the old flying ashtray, myself included. It could occasionally be a little problematic in 1911's (but not always). However, it was a fantastic revolver round.

Speer says that the 200 grain GDHP gives equivalent or better terminal performance. That may be, but I like the old design. You would think that Speer would have a run of the old design to gauge how much market there is for it. My supply is now exhausted - I would certainly buy some.

Staring at the business end of a 3" 625 with those big ol' holes staring back would certainly give a BG pause for thought.

Buck

Unfortunately, we'll never see that bullet again. I read somewhere in Speer's #14 manual(couldn't locate it right off) where they talked about that bullet and it's demise was in part due to equipment problems. Apparently they were either using some company's equipment and needed a part and the company was defunct or the company that was actually making the bullet had equipment failure.

That's not all exactly right but it was something involving equipment. At any rate, what's out there now in loaded form or component is all there will ever be. To me, the GD will never replace it.

If anyone's interested, here's a brief article Massad Ayoob did about this wonder bullet. I hadn't realized it had been gone this long.

The Demise Of The Ashtray | Guns Magazine | Find Articles at BNET

Even some the Gold Dot names have been changed to "Deep Curl"

Unfortunately there are no good pictures on the Speer site showing the mouth of the Short Barrel 230 gr GD, They stated it has more volume than a regular GD, It may be pretty close and just as good as the original.

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Still Running Against the Wind

I knew an guy who loaded 10 grs of Unique behind the 200gr JHP Speer back in the mid 70's . It was before affordable chrono's so he didn't have any idea what they did. I'd have no problem working up to 7.3grs of Unique, I've loaded 7.2grs behind a 230 gr bullet per some rather old data many years ago. It was stout but nothing was unusual with the case or primer. Not something I ever shot many of and a heavier spring would probably would be in order. I think if you run a few over the chrono loaded with 7.0 grs you will probably have your 950 fps or more.

That must have been in a Ruger 45Colt/ACP conversion pistol. I had one in 1974 myself. I'd never try that in a semi-automatic. The highest charge I've seen for that weight bullet has been 7.5 gr of Unique at roughly 950+, depending on barrel length and rate of twist.

I still have about five boxes left started to use gold dots couple years back still on the back cabinet it was my number one choice for many years 200gr XTP's are my second

Neither would I but he was shooting them with a Colt Commander. His comment was they where "flat shooting."

I "found" these stashed in my ammo "bunker"

200 gr ashtrays with 6.5 grs of Unique

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Still Running Against the Wind

Still have 2 full "ammo cans" of the flying ashtrays. 350/per plastic ammo can. Really like the bullet for 45 AR and 45 LC defense loadings, as it has a cannelure and is very accurate. It took some extra effort to load it in 45 acp semi, to avoid bullet setback. Some semi's owned had trouble feeding it.

I use a heavy charge of Power Pistol with the Ashtray that gets me right up to 1200 FPS. This is with a 625 Mountain Gun and ACP brass. You could probably duplicate this velocity in an auto but you'd need Super brass and stiffer springs.

I once shot a deer through the head at about 15 yards with this bullet going about 1075 FPS. It went through with no evidence of expansion, which is just the way I prefer it. I don't know if the extra 125 FPS would cause it to expand or just penetrate deeper. This was an excellent bullet but modern bullets like the Gold Dot and Barnes XPB are even better.

Dave Sinko

Still have 2 full "ammo cans" of the flying ashtrays. 350/per plastic ammo can. Really like the bullet for 45 AR and 45 LC defense loadings, as it has a cannelure and is very accurate. It took some extra effort to load it in 45 acp semi, to avoid bullet setback. Some semi's owned had trouble feeding it.

Like Zeke says, Speer used to sell these bullets in a bulk plastic ammo box. Because of the cannelure, this is a perfect bullet for a 45 Colt carry load. At 1150 fps, this bullet yields almost 600 ft/lbs. of energy. This is right up there with a full-power 10mm load. Still easy to shoot on the N-frame platform.

I have exactly one loaded round, a CCI Blazer with the Ashtray, and I'm saving it, too. My understanding is that Speer's machine used to make this bullet had been rebuilt so many times that one day it finally broke and they decided to retire it rather than replace it, since the Gold Dot had already come on line. I happened across the box of CCI Blazer while working at the Ohio Peace Officer Training Academy that was leftover from a long-forgotten training class, and my Kimber 1911 TLE II banged through 7 magazines perfectly. The 50th round I saved to put on a shelf in my reloading room, just because it looks so wicked.

The Gold Dot is a great bullet, but there will never be another Ashtray. I dream that someday someone stumbles across a forgotten warehouse full of loaded CCI ammo and component bullets as well.

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Elmer Keith is my hero.

Amen and amen It's been my top favorite since it's inception for the .45 and while the GD may be great and a worthy successor to the original 200 gr Speer, none will replace this...it's an icon.

In the remote recesses of my reloading supplies, I actually turned up a new box of 100 4477's. Ashtrays! Oh joy, oh joy!

Buck