I'm looking for suggestions for reloading ammunition for my S&w model 36 and for my Colt Detective. I've been loading 158gr LSW and 148gr LWC over W231 powder. These are also the same bullets I mold for target use for my model 19s. However, these 2 bullet types are what I've loaded my snubs with for travel and on the job use and I'm wondering if I should try something in non-lead and around the 125gr weight area for more optimum performance without stressing the weapons. I know this has probably been asked before but any suggestions?
Snub nose reloads
- Thread starter jagd1305
- Start date
Register to hide this ad
It can be difficult to get jacketed stuff to expand at 38 velocities, esp out of a short barrel. Some of the new factory stuff is made to expand, but I don't know if the components are available.
bmcgilvray
Member
Jacketed bullet doesn't always equate to best, even in this day and age. Those 158 grain lead SWCs sound pretty nice over a fairly stiff charge of your favorite propellant. It wouldn't be the kind of handload you'd want to shoot in great quantities but it'd be hard hitting and the guns will hold up fine.
Just for information, the old maximum of 5.4 grains of Unique behind a 158 grain lead SWC will give "+P equivalent" velocities. From a 2-inch Chief's Special the load clocks 847 fps and from a 4-inch Model 10 it clocks 935 fps. This load won't be found in current watered-down handloading guides but was commonly accepted for many years. As always, work up to any suggested loads you may find on forums.
Just for information, the old maximum of 5.4 grains of Unique behind a 158 grain lead SWC will give "+P equivalent" velocities. From a 2-inch Chief's Special the load clocks 847 fps and from a 4-inch Model 10 it clocks 935 fps. This load won't be found in current watered-down handloading guides but was commonly accepted for many years. As always, work up to any suggested loads you may find on forums.
For non lead bullets, try to find some of the Speer Short barrel Gold Dots in 125 or 135. They are designed to expand at lower velocities. I just buy a box or two of factory loads.
They lead bullet folks like the 158 gr LSWC HP. Buffalo Bore makes loaded rounds and calls it +P. I think it is +P++!
More like a 357. I shot some from a +P rated 442 and they were brutal.
They lead bullet folks like the 158 gr LSWC HP. Buffalo Bore makes loaded rounds and calls it +P. I think it is +P++!
More like a 357. I shot some from a +P rated 442 and they were brutal.
FrankD45
Absent Comrade
I have been on the hunt for a jacketed hollow point load that would clock near 1,000 fps. I posted the results of my initial tests several months ago. Those results, which started with the current recommended maximum loadings for my bullet/powder combination, were disappointing. Soon after that I underwent eye surgery that delayed any additional testing. This week my vision has improved to the point where I could resume my testing. Using a S&W Model 36 (no dash), I measured an average of 908 fps at ten feet with a 158 grain Hornady HP/XTP. The load appeared accurate and the fired cases practically fell out of the charge holes. I have not yet decided on pressing on and trying for 1,000. I believe the results I got are adequate for a "belly gun" and I am not anxious to risk "bending" a fine pistol for another 100 fps.
If you are interested, PM me and I will direct you to the resources I used in putting this together.
Frank
If you are interested, PM me and I will direct you to the resources I used in putting this together.
Frank
Alk8944
US Veteran
And what is more, you aren't going to get 1000 FPS from a 2" barrel and jacketed bullets! Give up before you hurt the gun and possibly yourself. To even get 900+ with a 158 gr jacketed bullet from a nominal 2" barrel you are already playing in the range of .357 Magnum pressures.
he fact that the cases "almost fall out" is not a sign that the load is safe, or even in the vague vicinity of permissible pressure for .38 Special. .357 Magnum cases usually extract easily too, don't they? All easy extraction means is you haven't gotten into the 36,000PSI or higher area yet.
A 158 gr. LSWCHP +P, so-called FBI Load, factory loaded ammunition, will usually run in the the range of 800-850 FPS from a 2" barrel. This is my chronograph results from several 2" S&W M-10 and M-12 revolvers, not factory claimed velocity. These cartridges are loaded in the 18,000 PSI area to obtain this velocity. To get to 900, even from 850, takes a pressure increase of ca. 11%, or somewhat over 20,000 minimum. This is with Lead bullets, you will lose 100+ FPS simply by changing to a jacketed bullet, approximately.
I hope you are listening and paying attention, but even more I hope others who read your remarks about getting 900 FPS+ from a jacketed 158 gr bullet in a 2" (OK, 1 7/8") revolver being reasonable will read this and understand how dangerous what you are trying to do really is.
Don't misunderstand! I have been handloading, experimenting and hot-rodding revolver cartridges for many years, probably more than you have been alive. This was with full knowledge that very likely I would take a gun apart some day. I never have, but only by GOD's Grace. There simply isn't any purpose to it. If you want .357 Magnum performance from a .38 Caliber revolver, buy one! And for comparison, it is unusual to get much over 1000 FPS from a 2" .357 Magnum 158 gr factory loads, although I have seen ca 1100 FPS at times, and in warm weather. How do you expect to get that velocity safely in a .38? Especially a Model 36! Remember, there is no J Frame revolver prior to the J-Magnum frame that is even factory approved for .38+P, (18,500 PSI), let alone 30,000 PSI plus.
Last edited:
FrankD45
Absent Comrade
I appreciate the concerns voiced by Alk8944, however I did not recommend the load I tested nor did I mention the powder used or the actual weight used. I also do not want to leave the impression that I jumped into a maximum load without research and lots of careful thought as well as more than 40 years of hand loading experience. The result I obtained came at the end of a series of ten incrementally increasing charge weights. My reasoning is the belief that current published loads have been diluted by over zealous corporate attorneys. I find it very hard to buy into the fact that published loads from 40 years ago were unsafe then and are unsafe now. That being said, I started my testing at a level considered "safe" in current publications and started working TOWARD a load listed in a 1970 publication as producing more than 1,000 fps from a 1-7/8 inch S&W "J" frame revolver using jacketed bullets. Again I did not and will not suggest that anyone follow in my footsteps. I did clearly say that if anyone was interested I would direct them to my sources.
I trust that will put this to rest.
Frank
I trust that will put this to rest.
Frank
bmcgilvray
Member
Hmmm...I think I'll take up knitting. Handloading and shooting the .38 Special has gotten too dangerous in recent years.
Skip Sackett
US Veteran
Frank & bmc,
Keep a chair around the ole' quilting frame open for me! Seems I'll have to give up reloading too!
I have used data from the old publications to develop loads for firearms that were around when they were published. Granted, I haven't fired hundreds of rounds out of my guns, 158gr LSWC @ 1100fps from a 3" tube and a "J" frame revolver just isn't all that pleasant to shoot. Now, saying that, I do have it loaded with them right now and should I need it for self defense, I'm relatively sure it will make it through 5 more rounds of the stuff without blowing up.
Lapua (easier to spell than their other name) lists VV N340 powder driving a 160gr LSWC to 1100fps from a 6 1/2" barrel while their data clearly states that it does so while still conforming to all pertinent pressure standards. If they can "get-r-did" safely, um, why can't we?
Here is a copy of their data:
10,4 160 LFN Intercast 37,5 1.476 N340 0,33 5.1gr 297 974fps 0,38 5.8gr 338 1107fps
Keep a chair around the ole' quilting frame open for me! Seems I'll have to give up reloading too!
I have used data from the old publications to develop loads for firearms that were around when they were published. Granted, I haven't fired hundreds of rounds out of my guns, 158gr LSWC @ 1100fps from a 3" tube and a "J" frame revolver just isn't all that pleasant to shoot. Now, saying that, I do have it loaded with them right now and should I need it for self defense, I'm relatively sure it will make it through 5 more rounds of the stuff without blowing up.
Lapua (easier to spell than their other name) lists VV N340 powder driving a 160gr LSWC to 1100fps from a 6 1/2" barrel while their data clearly states that it does so while still conforming to all pertinent pressure standards. If they can "get-r-did" safely, um, why can't we?
Here is a copy of their data:
10,4 160 LFN Intercast 37,5 1.476 N340 0,33 5.1gr 297 974fps 0,38 5.8gr 338 1107fps
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2006
- Messages
- 19,611
- Reaction score
- 31,098
I used to use LSCW 158 gr. bullets until I decided to try the old fashioned 158 gr. LRN bullets. I find that 158 LRN are more accurate than the SWC and also lead the barrel and cylinders a LOT less. For informal plinking and target work I use 3.3 to 3.4 grains of Tite Group powder and I am always a happy camper!
chief38
chief38
David Sinko
Member
The five shot J Frame revolvers are very tough. You will experience serious problems much more abruptly if you attempt to hot rod for the six shot K Frame .38 Special revolvers. My Model 64 snub will protest loudly if I attempt to reach 1000 FPS with any kind of 158 gr. bullet.
As far as heavy jacketed bullets and 2" barrels go, I have a load for my 940 which easily exceeds 1000 FPS with 147 gr. jacketed bullets.
I still feel that the best load for a 2" .38 Special J Frame is a hard cast 158 gr. SWC with a heavy charge of SR4756. You can duplicate the ballistics of the esteemed Buffalo Bore loading but without the soft HP bullet and at a fraction of the cost.
Dave Sinko
As far as heavy jacketed bullets and 2" barrels go, I have a load for my 940 which easily exceeds 1000 FPS with 147 gr. jacketed bullets.
I still feel that the best load for a 2" .38 Special J Frame is a hard cast 158 gr. SWC with a heavy charge of SR4756. You can duplicate the ballistics of the esteemed Buffalo Bore loading but without the soft HP bullet and at a fraction of the cost.
Dave Sinko
myanof
Member
For many years I have loaded my wifes Mod 36 with Nyclads, origianlly made by S&W. Federal has started producing them again, and that's what I recommend. They are standard pressure 125gr that will expand at those pressure levels. This is the most effective 38 special ammo I have found at standard pressure.
Last edited:
Sir, things must not be watered down too much--Alliant's current max for Unique and a lead 158 is 5.2 grains. They do list it as a +P load, though. Alliant Powder - Reloader's Guide
Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.
Ron H.
Frank & bmc,
Keep a chair around the ole' quilting frame open for me! Seems I'll have to give up reloading too!
Lapua (easier to spell than their other name) lists VV N340 powder driving a 160gr LSWC to 1100fps from a 6 1/2" barrel while their data clearly states that it does so while still conforming to all pertinent pressure standards. If they can "get-r-did" safely, um, why can't we?
Here is a copy of their data:
10,4 160 LFN Intercast 37,5 1.476 N340 0,33 5.1gr 297 974fps 0,38 5.8gr 338 1107fps
Skip, I didn't know a 6.5" barrel was a snub nose? Maybe you should try knitting instead.
But back to the question. I do not understand folks "obsession" with trying to eek out 100 fps or so more out of a small 1-7/8 or 2" barrel?? You can not change the laws of physics. Sure some will prove they chronographed some higher velocities but in the overall scheme of things what difference does it make?
At a self defense distance of 10 feet or less it isn't gonna matter is it??. So load up whatever bullet 125, 135 JHP short barrel or 158 gr lead at the max load for whatever powder you use or buy a box of factory loads. I really do not think the BG that gets shot will know the difference.
Skip Sackett
US Veteran
So EVERYONE WILL UNDERSTAND!
I was trying to infer that since they had a remarkably fast load for a 38spl and a "normal" length barrel, that there may be some merit in checking out that load in a snubby.
While OBVIOUSLY you aren't going to get that performance from the shorter barrel, you will get better performance than say, from a load that delivers only 850fps from a 6 1/2" barrel.
I hope that is sufficiently explained!
Skip, I didn't know a 6.5" barrel was a snub nose? Maybe you should try knitting instead.
I was trying to infer that since they had a remarkably fast load for a 38spl and a "normal" length barrel, that there may be some merit in checking out that load in a snubby.
While OBVIOUSLY you aren't going to get that performance from the shorter barrel, you will get better performance than say, from a load that delivers only 850fps from a 6 1/2" barrel.
I hope that is sufficiently explained!
"I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I’m not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant"
bmcgilvray
Member
Thanks Ron;
I don't get out much any more. Several more recent loading manuals and brochures I have are showing 4.5 grains of Unique or even less as max. The 5.2 grain charge of Unique is bound to work as well as 5.4 grains. In fact I loaded a batch of 50 last week at 5.1 grains just to split the difference between my old standard 4.8 grain charge of Unique with the 158 grain SWC and the max. load of 5.4 grains. I want to see what 5.1 offers over the chronograph.
I don't think much of Unique when used in charge weights less than about 4.5 grains with a 158 grain lead bullet in .38 Special. Velocity variations go up and the loads are very smokey. For really light loads I like Bulls-Eye or some other really fast burning powder.
Sir, I've seen that in .44s and .45s as well. Unique just seems to perform better toward the top of the data than the bottom.
Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.
Ron H.
