HS-6 in 38 Special?

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Anyone using Hodgdon's HS-6 in 38 special loads? I usually load with Unique or Clays but have a pound of HS-6 that I would like to try. I'm using the Laser Cast 158 gr SWC which I have not had good luck with shooting at lower velocities (700-800 fps). The Hodgdon's site lists 5.7 grs of HS-6 at 928 fps with a max of 6.3 gr at 1010 fps. Anyone have any experience with HS-6?

Thanks

Rick
 
My first loads for the .38 Special were with 158 gr cast swc's, and HS-6 about 30 years ago. I have used it in that round as well as several other since then, and have always been very satisfied with its performance. I worked up to the max load in Speer #9 which is 5.8 grains, and it always shot quite well out of my first .38, and .357.

It has worked well in many other .38's that have came and went since then too.
 
Just happens that fairly recently I purchased a pound of HS-6 because of the claimed velocities, specifically to load some +P equivalent loads. The only difference being I used the +P charge data from Hodgdon which, for the 158 JHP is 6.6 gr.

Here is the specific load:

W-W Nickel .38 Spl cases
Federal 100 primer
Speer 158 LSWCHP
6.6 gr. HS-6

3 guns used and approximate test temperature noted. On the first test I was only getting 2 of 3 rounds to read so I stopped at only one cylinder fired, 4 of 6 rounds read.

M 10-4 6" 50 degrees avg velocity 776 FPS

M 10-5 2" 60 degrees avg velocity 689 FPS 12 rds

K-38 6" 60 degrees avg velocity 744 FPS 12 rds

This last gun is a 1948 skinny barrel K-38 and tends to run a little slow.

Out of the 2" M 10 Win & Fed 158 LSWCHP +P both chronographed at 821 FPS, so it is obvious that the Hodgdon data is, to say the least, optimistic! I estimated that it would take 8.3-8.4 gr HS-6 or about a 28% increase in charge weight to get the same velocity as the factory +P loads tested! Ain't going to happen. Far from giving +P velocities as anticipated I barely got standard velocity performance.

In other words, don't expect anything close to the velocities Hodgdon shows for at least this cartridge/powder/bullet combination.
 
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ArchangelCD (whose birthday it is today - happy birthday, amico), convinced me to try HS-6 for the .38. I found that I definitely preferred a magnum primer with this powder, and that old-school loadings gave me quite accurate results very similar in power to the "FBI Load." I can also duplicate this with Unique and Power Pistol, but it's nice to have another load available. I have no idea what present-day load maximums are, though, so I'll refrain from publishing data.
 
An older data Unique load will easily surpass that kind of velocities out of a 2" barrel. Something like 850 fps, but I clocked 870 fps out of a 2" Rossi.

BTW, that's MV, the instrumental velocity was a little over 850 fps.
 
HS-6 will get you some serious +P velocities. It just won't happen with current data. HS-6 HAS GOT TO HAVE A MAGNUM PRIMER. Otherwise you are going to have abysmal results. Unburnt powder and wide ES and SD.

It meters like a dream and as Erich has stated, ArchAngel, has rung the limits of this powder in the 38spl. He'll be along, guaranteed, once he reads the title! ;)

Alk's estimation is a bit high to get the desired results, but not that much. The Speer #8 maximum load is a bit less than the 8.4gr he stated and I too wouldn't go there. Speer #8 maximum load though, yeah, I'd give that a try. It says that they got over 1200fps from a 6" K frame! Now that is +P performance to say the least! ;)
 
Mercy! :D

htoak2.jpg
 
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As has been said, I have done a lot of testing with HS-6 and have settled on a few loads I really like.

Here's what I've found to be true for me:
HS-6 does not react well to light loads, it's "happier" up near the top end of the pressure range. Because of that I don't use HS-6 for standard .38 Special load, only for +P loads. As said, a Magnum primer IMO is a necessity. I can achieve single digit SD numbers with using a Magnum primer and the loads are much more consistent.

As for load data, the current load data available for HS-6 is anemic at best. I suggest looking at the .357 Magnum load data using a lead bullet and comparing it to the load data provided for lead bullets in the .38 Special and see what you can see! The current load data doesn't come near the SAAMI limits and with a little data extrapolation you can produce a very potent .38 Special +P load without pushing past the SAAMI limits.

I also use HS-6 in place of 2400 for medium to medium hot range .357 Magnum ammo and for .45 Colt "working" loads. HS-6 seems to generate less pressure than most other powders while generating the same velocities.
(as you can see I don't care for HS-6 in the least!! :p)

Thank you for the Birthday wishes Erich...
 
Thanks for the replies!
I just tried some test loads with 5.8 gr of HS-6 under a Laser Cast 158 gr swc (very hard lead or silver or whatever they use). I used a standard Winchester small pistol primer. The grouping was not good and there was a lot of powder residue in the barrel of my 6.5 in. Blackhawk. Recoil was mild.

I am guessing that the Laser Cast bullet is so hard that the base is not expanding enough to "grab" the rifling at lower velocities. Softer lead bullets such as Hornady and Speer work much better in the gun. I have not tried any in my Model 10 4" but am not expecting any better results.

Sounds like I will need a magnum primer and possibly up the charge before this powder will burn properly. Maybe I'll just stick to Unique!
 
Accuracy will improve with a higher charge weight and use of Magnum primer. When you get it right you will be impressed with the accuracy.
 
I believe he IS telling the truth!
I just tried 5 more loads: 6.2 Gr HS-6 and Federal Magnum primers.
No more unburned powder, accuracy getting better.
Running out of time today but I am going to pursue this further. Thanks for the help!
 
I have been using the maximum Hodgdon load of 6.6 grains and a 158LSWC with my guns. Accuracy has been nothing to brag about, but it does seem to smack metal plates with some authority. While I have not chronographed the load, it does fire smartly when the hammer is dropped.

Also, as others have mentioned, there is a fair bit of residue and plenty of kernels of unburned powder. In fact, if I am remembering correctly from this past summer, there were a lot of what looked to be "bleached" granules of powder on the bench around that part touched by muzzle blast, and even in the cases themselves. I have not tried it with a magnum primer, as I use primarily WSP, but perhaps that will change the lacklustre results I've seen thus far.
 
Last of the Mohicans said:
I have not tried it with a magnum primer, as I use primarily WSP, but perhaps that will change the lackluster results I've seen thus far.
Click to expand...
I'm betting you will see an improvement with Magnum primers.

I'm not telling anyone to exceed published loads as a rule but like I said above, the load data for HS-6 is anemic at best. Look around and look at the .357 Magnum load data on the Hodgdon Load Data Site for lead 158gr bullets and you will see a much higher charge listed than in the .38 Special but less pressure from .7gr more powder. Also, look at some older Winchester W540 data for real results. They are both the same powders.

Hodgdon lists a charge of 7.0gr with pressures of only 15,500 CUP in .357 Magnum brass using a Magnum primer. Granted the Magnum case is 1/8" longer but it's hard to believe you can increase the charge weight that much and have such low pressure from only 1/8" more capacity. This is only my opinion, I'm not telling anyone to do something they feel is unsafe. I'm only thinking out loud and extrapolating data.

With a .38 Special +P pressure ceiling of 20,000 PSI which is something like 22,000 CUP I'm sure 7.0gr is safe in a .38 Special case. Again, just my opinion, I'm not telling anyone to do what I do.
 
Objectively, HS-6 is at the edge of suitable powders for the .38 Special.
It actually works better in a .357 case at pressures between .38+P and .357 mag specs.
However, if you want to get into the range of high-pressure N-frame .38 loads, the HS-6 perks up and performs.

Haaving unusually low pressures in a load is not a goal to be coveted, because it also means low efficiency and often poor consistency.
 
OKFC05 said:
Objectively, HS-6 is at the edge of suitable powders for the .38 Special.
It actually works better in a .357 case at pressures between .38+P and .357 mag specs.
However, if you want to get into the range of high-pressure N-frame .38 loads, the HS-6 perks up and performs.
Click to expand...
As I said in my first post... (Post #11)
 
ArchAngelCD said:
I'm betting you will see an improvement with Magnum primers.

I'm not telling anyone to exceed published loads as a rule but like I said above, the load data for HS-6 is anemic at best. Look around and look at the .357 Magnum load data on the Hodgdon Load Data Site for lead 158gr bullets and you will see a much higher charge listed than in the .38 Special but less pressure from .7gr more powder. Also, look at some older Winchester W540 data for real results. They are both the same powders.

Hodgdon lists a charge of 7.0gr with pressures of only 15,500 CUP in .357 Magnum brass using a Magnum primer. Granted the Magnum case is 1/8" longer but it's hard to believe you can increase the charge weight that much and have such low pressure from only 1/8" more capacity. This is only my opinion, I'm not telling anyone to do something they feel is unsafe. I'm only thinking out loud and extrapolating data.

With a .38 Special +P pressure ceiling of 20,000 PSI which is something like 22,000 CUP I'm sure 7.0gr is safe in a .38 Special case. Again, just my opinion, I'm not telling anyone to do what I do.
Click to expand...

Well, where I am, as in many parts of Kanuckistan, the shooting year involves about 8 months of range time and about 4 months at the reloading bench. We're in the reloading season now.

I'm using 6.6 grains right now in .38spl cases, but I'll be picking up some magnum primers at my local pusher's establishment before my next .38 reloading session.
 
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