38 Spl. 158gr LSWC- How much W231 are you using?

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shortround451

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I gave been loading 4.2 grains of W231 with hard cast 158 gr LSWC for years. It shoots well in my revolvers and Marlin carbine. I probably got this load from the Lyman manual. I noticed today that the new Hodgen manual shows this load to be over maximum. How much W231 are y'all loading with 158gr LSWC and also 148ge bbwc? I really like 231 so don't try to convince me to change powders. Thanks
 
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I use 3.8 of HP 38 for 158 gr LSWC, You should switch over to HP 38;)

Speer lists 4.3 max and Lyman lists 4.0 for the 158 gr

Lyman lists 4.9 for a 160 gr and 5.2 for a 160 gr +p

I wouldn't worry about your 4.2grs.
 
W231

I have used up to 4.7 gr of W231 for 158 gr LSWC, but that is considered a +P load according to Speer 13. I do not have a great deal of experience with W231 in 158 gr 38 SPL because my revolver does not shoot well with W231 loads and 158 gr LSWC. I have had better accuracy with Unique and heavier bullets. Conversely, I have had excellent results with W231 in lighter jacketed 38 SPL bullets such as 110 gr and 140 gr SJHP or SJSP.

My 2nd edition of Lee's Modern Reloading shows the maximum W231 load for 38 SPL LSWC to be 4.5 grains producing a pressure of 15,800 psi (not CUP), and a velocity of 830 fps. Speer 13 shows 4.3 grains max.
 
38 Spl. 158 gr LSWC - how much W231

Sgt Preston here...

I'm also a big Win 231 fan...

I load 4.0 grain of Win 231...

I use Berry's 158 grain flat point swaged / copper plated bullets...

They seem to fly fine & print the target right where I expect them to...

I shoot them out of an S&W 686 x 4" SSR...

I have probably loaded & shot 5000 with this load...

Hope this is helpful..!

Sgt Preston USMC LLA...
 
I also use 4.2 gr of W-231 in .38, with 158 LSWC. I've not had any issues, and get very good accuracy in a variety of revolvers...
 
Currently using 4.0 of 231 with 158 cast swc. Using 3.0 with some Star HBWC's.
Using my mdls 14&15.
 
Icore requires a minimum power factor of 120. So, I'm currently using 4.6 grains of WW231 under a Berry's 158 grain round nose bullet. This gives me 810 fps and a 126 power factor out of a 5" model 627PC.
 
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I load 4.5grs of W231 which is standard pressure according to previous Winchesters data and in Fiocchi cases lit with WSP primers this load chrono's at 822 fps from a 4" S&W 66. A +P load using 4.7grs makes 879 fps from the same gun. Good duplication of factory published ballistics for 158gr lead bullet ammo.

When Hodgdon took over the marketing of Winchester powders and providing on line loading data they lowered all the charge levels for lead bullets to what was listed as "Cowboy" loads using HP38. Their velocities listed are from a 7.7" test barrel so real world velocity from the typical 4" revolver are well below factory standard pressure ammo where published data comes from 4" vented test barrels. Hodgdon lists the pressure of a 3.7gr load at 14,600 CUP (don't know why they haven't updated to PSI) but its significantly lower when compared to the old SAAMI standard pressure level of 18,600 CUP for standard pressure maximum.
 
4 grs under a 158 gr SWC for practice in the smaller snubs. 4.5 grs in all others work for me. :)
BT
 
Back when I shot IDPA sanctioned matches and really believed that I'd be held accountable over the chrono (silly me) I loaded 5.0 grs. of 231 with the 158 gr. SWC and plated bullets to get to 130 PF in my Model 66. I remember the plated bullet loads had a distinctive muzzle blast and the fouling on the frame and cylinder was a nice brown color but I never noticed any high pressure signs. Also, 231 burns nice and clean the hotter you load it.

Dave Sinko
 
Depends on what Lyman bullet ya got the data from. If it's from the #356311 round-nose or #358429 Keith-style bullets , they have the weight in the long nose , and leave more room in the case. Other SWCs will leave less room in the case , and possibly a compressed charge.

Looking thru a few tables , I see all kind of max weights for W-231/HP-38 and a 158gr lead bullet. From 3.7 to 4.9.

Pressures and recommended charges can vary due to a number of factors. Powder lot to lot variations , different test methods and equipment , atmospheric conditions , primer used , hardness of cast bullets vs swaged lead , etc.
 
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Steve C said:
I load 4.5grs of W231 which is standard pressure according to previous Winchesters data and in Fiocchi cases lit with WSP primers this load chrono's at 822 fps from a 4" S&W 66. A +P load using 4.7grs makes 879 fps from the same gun. Good duplication of factory published ballistics for 158gr lead bullet ammo.

When Hodgdon took over the marketing of Winchester powders and providing on line loading data they lowered all the charge levels for lead bullets to what was listed as "Cowboy" loads using HP38. Their velocities listed are from a 7.7" test barrel so real world velocity from the typical 4" revolver are well below factory standard pressure ammo where published data comes from 4" vented test barrels. Hodgdon lists the pressure of a 3.7gr load at 14,600 CUP (don't know why they haven't updated to PSI) but its significantly lower when compared to the old SAAMI standard pressure level of 18,600 CUP for standard pressure maximum.
Click to expand...

Your data and info seem much more in line with what gets reported on real-world chronos and I'm inclined to set more stock in these figures than the current published Hodgdon data. I agree that there are all kinds of factors to take into account when establishing reloading data and manufacturers have a lot more experience and technology at their disposal. Still, we're not talking about max, red-line loads here. Just enough powder to get a 158 grain .38 bullet up to 800 FPS.
 
I use 4.5 gr of 231 and get superb accuracy and very mild recoil(+P of course).
 
Thanks for all of the responses. I chronographed my loads today and made a seperate post. Please take a look and see what you think.
 
Winchester and Hodgdon entered into their licensing/distributorship agreement in 2006. The Hodgdon 2006 Annual reloading book shows only Hodgdon powders. The 2007 book shows both Hodgdon and Winchester powders. For 38 Special, the 2007 Hodgdon HP38 and Winchester 231 loads are identical with the 2006 HP38 loads.

Referring back to my 1993 Loadbook for 38 Special the data from Speer and Lyman both showed HP38 maxing out from 0.1 to 0.6 grains before 231 maxed out. The RCBS loads maxed out with 231 having the lower maximum. At one time it looks like 231 and HP38 were two very similar but different powders with 231 being slightly slower.

Once the agreement was signed Hodgdon packaged powder that was labeled as 231 for Winchester and HP38 for Hodgdon. Since then they have said that the two powders are identical. I believe that they are and that they are now what used to be called HP38 i.e. a powder that is slightly faster than the old 231.

The bottles have a lot number on them. The last two digits of the 7 digit portion of the lot number are the year in which it was made. (The second through the fifth are the month and day)

I can see where if you were using Speer or Lyman 231 data and were near max loads you might want to retest when using 231 produced during or after 2006 when Hodgdon took over the packaging.
 
W-231 and HP-38 have always been the same powder , made by the same company. Hodgdon never made powder. Winchester/ Olin Chemical once owned the St.Marks Powder company , now owned by General Dynamics. They make most domestic powders.

http://www.gd-ots.com/ , click on 'propulsion'.

Differences in data can be normal lot to lot variations. Powder making is not 100% 'exact'. But they get very , very close.
 
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