Replicating Norma Loads .38 spl +P

[blujax01]

I happened onto a half a box of Norma .38 Spl +P 110 Gr Hollow points that absolutely kick butt. The box says "110 Grain, 6.2 gram".

I found in the Speer #10 manual that combination of bullet weight and load using Unique powder at 6.2 grains.

As a newbie to guns and reloading, I know nothing about Norma except what I can find in bits and blathers on the web.

Does Unique mimic the Norma hand gun powder?
Where can I find bullets that look like the soft tip, small cavity jacketed Norma?

Thanks in advance for your consideration.

~ Alan

[cjw3]

I suppose the 6.2 could indicate the weight of the powder charge; it sure isn't the metric equivalent of the bullet....110 grains=7.1 grams.

The only way to duplicate this load (if possible) is to obtain the velocity it achieves from your gun and then safely work up to that in accordance with published data. Velocity figures printed on cartridge boxes or in promotional materials mean very little.

Norma has been out of the handgun ammunition business for a while, so I am guessing that the bullet used would not be the equal of most of what we have available today. I haven't tinkered with 110 grain bullets in .38/.357 for many years but do recall that expansion in the shorter barrels with .38 Special was an iffy thing; a larger cavity in the HP would definitely be an improvement. Good luck.

[NiklasP]

IF that 6,2 is weight of powder, I would expect it to be one of Norma powders. However, IF that really is 6,2 GRAMS, that is a HUGE charge of powder, suited to a rather large case, high power centerfire rifle, NOT a 38 Spl.

I suppose, IF this was ammo sold in USA, then MAYBE it is indeed reloading advice, very dubious advice, since it does not tell what powder is.

Niklas

[john traveler]

I agree with NiklasP.

6.2 grams is close to 90 grains of powder. What .38 Special case can hold that much of any powder??

Another complication of trying to duplicate the old Norma load is that the old Norma bullets are steel-jacketed. Where are you gonna find steel-jacketed .38 Special bullets today?

[Alk8944]

Originally Posted by blujax01

I happened onto a half a box of Norma .38 Spl +P 110 Gr Hollow points that absolutely kick butt. The box says "110 Grain, 6.2 gram".

I found in the Speer #10 manual that combination of bullet weight and load using Unique powder at 6.2 grains.

As a newbie to guns and reloading, I know nothing about Norma except what I can find in bits and blathers on the web.

Does Unique mimic the Norma hand gun powder?
Where can I find bullets that look like the soft tip, small cavity jacketed Norma?

Thanks in advance for your consideration.

~ Alan

The notation of Grams on Eropean ammunition is supposed to denote the bullet weight. Is the box marked as 110 gr. anywhere, or did someone tell you that was the bullet weight? 6.2 grams = ca. 96 grains, and as I recall, Norma loaded a bullet of that weight at one time in .38 and .357. You may be trying to duplicate something that doesn't exist through a misunderstanding or being misinformed.

Another consideration is that US ammunition is loaded to SAAMI pressure standards, and European uses CIP standards. The Piezo (PSIG) pressure standards for .357 Magnum are 35,000 PSI SAAMI, and 45,000 PSI, CIP, a considerable difference! This is why Norma ammunition performs to an obviously higher standard than US loaded ammunition. This is given as an example only as I have not been able to locate any CIP pressure standards for .38 SPL +P. I suspect there is some disparity there too. It would appear that all the +P marking indicates is the ammunition exceeds standard pressure loading, but not by a specific amount. Just like +P+ simply means it exceeds +p standards and use at your own risk.

There is only one way to "duplicate" any factory load. The first consideration is you must know at least the correct bullet weight! In this case, the Norma Tri-Clad bullets are not an issue. I am not sure they even used the Tri-Clad in .38 Spl.

1) Step one is to chronograph the factory ammunition so you know what velocity it develops. You cannot depend on published data, particularly with revolvers.

2) Select a similar bullet. If the ammunition really was 96 grains you are finished already, there just isn't anything available!

3) Select an appropriate powder. In this Case N-110, 2400 would probably be good choices.

4) Starting with data in a good loading manual begin at the "starting load" or a little higher. Load at least 5 rounds each in several steps up to the maximum load.

5) Chronograph your loads in the same revolver, not just another one in the same caliber. When you get to the same average velocity as the original ammunition you are as close as you will ever get.

Please note that no manufacturer will tell you what powder they loaded. It will certainly be a non-canister type not available to the re-loader. It can vary from lot to lot, and may even be from a different manufacturer. Trying to guess what powder is in factory ammunition is extremely dangerous, particularly with Ball types as they are all very similar in appearance.

If you do not have, and cannot obtain a sample of the ammunition you want to "duplicate" you are finished since you have no way to determine the performance of the original ammunition! Same if you don't have a chronograph.

My money is on you shot up all the ammunition in the box, so this question is just about as moot as it can be, and this was all a waste of time to explain! Am I right?

If this was a help to anyone it was worth it, though.

[cjw3]

Originally Posted by cjw3

I suppose the 6.2 could indicate the weight of the powder charge;

Brain fart....it happens when you get old.

[NiklasP]

While I have not looked with care at CIP chamber pressure for more than a few cartridges of personal interest, it is my current understanding that CIP has but one max pressure limit per cartridge -- none of the USA practice of +P or +P+ for cartridges like 38 Spl. I may be missing something for old, once BP rifle cartridges, for which there are later and various nitro loadings, such as the various 8,xx mm, 9,xx mm, etc. cartridges once so popular in drillings and rifle/shotgun combos. There are different CIP max chamber pressure standards for rimmed versions of rimless HP rifle cartridges, e.g., 7X57 Mauser vs 7X57R (for older break open rifles).

Niklas

[David Sinko]

Years ago didn't Norma have something called the ".38 Magnum?" I don't remember what the bullet weight was but the pressure was alleged to be standard .38 Special level. The velocity was rather high, all things considered. It was available for a while, then lo and behold, they all of a sudden published an ad confessing that yeah, the pressure was +P (or was it +P+?) all along. Is this what you have?

Dave Sinko

[bmcgilvray]

Not going to quote from it here but the 1978 edition of the Sierra manual will get you all the velocity you could dream of out of the .38 Special and a 110 grain jacketed hollow point.

How does 1388 fps from a 4-inch barrel and 1575 fps from an 8 3/8-inch barrel sound?

[papajohn428]

Originally Posted by bmcgilvray

How does 1388 fps from a 4-inch barrel and 1575 fps from an 8 3/8-inch barrel sound?

It sounds like something I'm not putting in any gun marked "38 Special" !

What propellant were they using for that load? C-4?

[Paul5388]

A couple of things may need to be cleared up. 1) Super Vel and others used to use undersized bullets to keep velocity up and pressure down. The bullet in question could very easily be a .355" or .356" .380 acp bullet. 2) 2400 probably isn't a good choice, or at least not as good as a medium burning powder, like HS6 or SR 4756. Speer #8 has a 1536 fps load for a 110 gr bullet out of .38 Special with a 6" barreled K-38. 2400 produces 1308 fps with a 125 gr bullet and SR 4756 produces 1426 fps with the same bullet in the same gun.

A .38 Special can be loaded as mild or wild as you have the gun to shoot it in.

[fredj338]

SO you are clear, the 6.2gr is the bullet wt NOT pwoder charge wt. It would nto be diff to make a sim load using several powders, but w/o a chronograph, you are only guessing. The Speer 110grGDHP would be a good choice & 1200fps would be attainable in a 4" bbl.