MILSURP powders

Well, the wife and I have taken a little trip and picked up some reloading supplies along the way.

We ended up at Jeff Bartlett's place and picked up our order. Saved the hazmat fees but really didn't save anything as we bought more than we needed, if you catch my drift!

We got some Russian surplus powder, Unique and H4895. Also, my favorite 44Mag powder, WC820. There was another powder that we got this time around too and I am looking forward to trying it, IPP or Industrial Pistol Powder. It came with it's own loading data that ammunition manufacturer's developed when they were using it. From 380 to 45 Colt. Nothing earth shattering for velocity anywhere along there but at $10/lb, worth a try for those RANGE BLASTER type of rounds.
I am really anxious to run some of this stuff across the chronograph and put them on paper as well.

After church I may be heading to the range to run some of this stuff. As soon as we got home, I headed to the man cave to get started!

Please keep us updated on how they shoot, I am interested in the Russian Unique and IPP also. I would also like to know how clean and about muzzle flash for these.

Mack, I can tell you already that WC820 has TONS LESS muzzle flash than ANY other magnum handgun powder.

It was originally designed for the .30 Carbine, something where H110/W296 really shines. There have been "fast" lots and "slower" lots available for a few years now. Their burn rate is from AA#9 data to just slightly slower than H110/W296. Pat's reloading, you can find them on the web, has a W297 that is a surplus from commercial ammunition loaders. That should be good as well.
Back to the WC820, I loaded some friend's 44Mag with it and they use it to take deer up here in Indiana. They are shooting it out of Marlin rifles though so muzzle flash is not an issue anyway. But, even when shot out of a handgun, the muzzle flash is much less.

One reason I like it.

The Unique is a lighter color than the Alliant version but, it has the exact same loading characteristics, at least through the Dillon machines I use. @ 9gr under a 45-270SAA RCBS clone bullet, it threw pretty consistent charges. +/- .1gr. Acceptable for this type of load. I even threw some @ 4.5gr just to see how it went and they were about the same for variance.

The I.P.P. was better at metering, small extruded powder, like one of the Vitavouri (sp) powders, N340 or so for looks, not data. Jeff gave me a sheet that was worked up at a factory where they used this powder. He did caution me to expect lower velocities than what was in the data but, I kind of already expected that from an ammo manufacturer's data!

I had an OLD MILSURP powder, NM104, if memory serves me correctly. Loaded it like Bullseye and that stuff was the absolutely dirtiest powder I have ever used, bar none! I still have the majority of a 1lb can left.

The Unique is very bulky. Jeff must have had to shake the jug to get the 6lbs into it. I poured a hopper full, loaded a few rounds, went to put it back into the jug and couldn't get it to fit! I'm thinking, hey, you came out of this jug, you gotta fit back into it! So, I shook it a bit and got it to settle some, then it all went back in. Maybe the reason surplus powder is so good is that when you open it, it keeps producing to refill the empty spots in the containers.................................... Yeah, well, maybe not!

smith crazy said:

Well, the wife and I have taken a little trip and picked up some reloading supplies along the way.

We ended up at Jeff Bartlett's place and picked up our order. Saved the hazmat fees but really didn't save anything as we bought more than we needed, if you catch my drift!

We got some Russian surplus powder, Unique and H4895. Also, my favorite 44Mag powder, WC820. There was another powder that we got this time around too and I am looking forward to trying it, IPP or Industrial Pistol Powder. It came with it's own loading data that ammunition manufacturer's developed when they were using it. From 380 to 45 Colt. Nothing earth shattering for velocity anywhere along there but at $10/lb, worth a try for those RANGE BLASTER type of rounds.
I am really anxious to run some of this stuff across the chronograph and put them on paper as well.

After church I may be heading to the range to run some of this stuff. As soon as we got home, I headed to the man cave to get started!

Click to expand...

The last time I purchsed surplus military powder was ij the 1960's when I split a 100 lb. keg of Hodgdon 4831 at 50 cents a lb. We used H-4831 ij everything from 220 Swift to 375 H&H and some reduced loads with lead bullets.
For pistol powder I use PROMO (RED DOT) which sells for a bit less than $10 a lb in the 8lb bottle. I have used PROMO in caliobers from 9mm to 45 ACP.

smith crazy,

Compare the data you got from Bartlett on the IPP with Power Pistol. My best bet is that it is a non-canister grade powder used by many manufacturers, which is known in the trade as "Bullseye 84", which is almost universally used to load .40 S&W, 10mm, 9mm, and similar cartridges. Might save you some time.

The canister grade version of Bullseye 84 is Power Pistol. Information was obtained directly from Alliant.

The WC820 was, at one time, marketed by Hodgdon as H-109, which was surplus .30 Carbine powder. This was from a conversation with one of the Hodgdon lab people when I was asking directly if H-110 was originally .30 Carbine powder. His response was that the Carbine powder had been sold as H-109. Since it was for a military application it only makes sense that it would have lower flash, where this could be a tactical issue.

Note correction of non-canister version of "Power Pistol" to "Bullseye 84". The designation "Bullseye 2" is the original factory designation for what we now know as simply "Bullseye". This dates back to 1898 when Bullseye was originally created and produced by its' originator, Laflin & Rand. I knew "Bullseye didn't sound right when I first typed it!

Alk,
There is only some data available for Power Pistol and the cartridges listed on the data from Jeff. He did state that it was a powder made by Hercules, not Alliant, same same, I know but that kind of plays to what you are saying.

I just got back from the range too. Pleasantly surprised too.

I took some RCBS 45-270SAA Clone bullets (boolits for those from castboolits ) and headed to the range with two loads under them.

The surplus Unique and the I.P.P.
Both powders were loaded to 9.0gr. From my Ruger Blackhawk 45 Convertible, with the same load of Alliant's Unique a few weeks ago, I got these results:
1030fps Avg., with an ES of 57fps and an SD of 18fps.
With the surplus Unique and the same firearm I got these results:
1000fps Avg., with an ES of 57fps and an SD of 22fps.

Now, I don't know about you, that is pretty similar statistics. Accuracy was fine too. Dirty? About the same as Unique always is and hey, you gotta clean them anyway, right? Outside wiped down pretty clean with a dry towel, no leading to speak of, some smoke (more a function of lube) but not bad.

The data I had for the I.P.P. said I should get 870fps with a 255gr SWC.
Actual data from this handgun was pretty close to that with 860fps Avg., ES was 43fps and SD 18fps.
As for clean, again, about standard with lead bullets(boolits ) and conventional lube.

The WC820 loads in 44Mag were exceptional. I am going to work more on them before I post results. Just for beginners though, I had and average velocity of 1715fps from my Ruger M77/44 and SD in the 17fps area too!

Accuracy at 100 yards was about 2" with the 240gr XTP, that will get better, believe me. Nothing to shake a stick at though. Least ways, not in my book.

So, was anything earth shattering determined? Just that I can save some money and shoot more with very comparable statistics and accuracy. At least in these few comparisons.

YMMV

Since non-canister grades of propellants vary slightly +/- in burning rate from the canister grades, the only difference, What you are seeing is right in the ballpark of what I would expect from these two powders.

More information

Well, I kind of put the Ruger down and have been working on getting the Encore to shoot well.

The combo is the standard base that came with the Gander Mountain 209X50 barrel. I purchase a 44Mag Pro Hunter, stainless steel, 22" fluted carbine barrel for it.

I mounted a Wally World scope on it and headed to the range.
Using the same XTP and WC820 powder, I got better than expected! Most folks say that they get 2" groups at 100 yards with their setup similar to mine. I am getting better than that and will continue to work with these loads and combination.

I went to 25gr of WC820. I read an article where Brian Pearce used that weight of H110 with a 240gr bullet with decent results. Increasing the powder took me to almost 1800fps and brought the SD down almost to single digits. I like that!

So, I shot a "skip special" target (one redibly available and not a typical one) and here are the 100 yard results after I got the scope adjusted to the new load:


The shot at the upper left was the first one put on the paper and used as an aiming point after that. The lower left is an OOPS while the three that are touching were fired in succession with me paying full attention. This was 100 yards and my thumb measures right @ 1" from knuckle to end.

I am pleased. At 50 yards, the bullet is about 1" high. Still plenty good enough to take deer sized game without adjusting the scope. Actually, according to ballistics software, sighted in like it is, it will drop about 15" from 100 to 200 yards. That is only one dot down on the mil-dot scope according to the card that came with it! 200 yards here in Indiana is a REALLY LONG SHOT! So, I should be good to go!

smith crazy said:

Well, the wife and I have taken a little trip and picked up some reloading supplies along the way.

We ended up at Jeff Bartlett's place and picked up our order. Saved the hazmat fees but really didn't save anything as we bought more than we needed, if you catch my drift!

We got some Russian surplus powder, Unique and H4895. Also, my favorite 44Mag powder, WC820. There was another powder that we got this time around too and I am looking forward to trying it, IPP or Industrial Pistol Powder. It came with it's own loading data that ammunition manufacturer's developed when they were using it. From 380 to 45 Colt. Nothing earth shattering for velocity anywhere along there but at $10/lb, worth a try for those RANGE BLASTER type of rounds.
I am really anxious to run some of this stuff across the chronograph and put them on paper as well.

After church I may be heading to the range to run some of this stuff. As soon as we got home, I headed to the man cave to get started!

Click to expand...

The last time I used surplus military powder was back in the late 1950's when a buddy and I split a 100 lb. keg of H-4831 for 50 cents a lb. I know of several shooters who use PROMO (RED DOT) powder in pistol loads from 9mm to 45 ACP - PROMO sells for less then $10 per lb.