jlynch34
US Veteran
I live in 'Remington Country' of central NY and I'm telling you it has been at least 20 years since Remington has made a good gun. I at one time had a safe full of Remington guns. Now most are Tikkas and a few of the old Rems. 
Smith and Colt differences...
- Thread starter 4506SHOOTER
- Start date
The old Bushmasters were built by the same guys who are now Windham Weaponry.
Thanks for the WW vs. M&P review, I think.
I was wondering how the two would compare.
I can drive 30 miles and by Colt AR15A3's all day long for $600, they already have the quadrail installed some are 14.5 barrels and some are 16" barrels. Actually in really nice shape...a lot of them are H-Bars or...
I can buy Bushmasters not sure of the Model number but they are just the same as the Colts only they dont have H-Bar barrels but they look identical and have the same length of barrels.
These are all trade in's and most of them dont look to have a ton of rounds ran through them. Quite a few people around my area and across Kansas are buying them from this dealer. I really have 3 questions.
1. Where do they come from? They are not select fire so they didnt come from the Military and they are not brand new lowers.
2. Why are the Bushmasters costing more than the Colts, and yes these are real Colts and real Bushmasters.
3. Where is this value that the Colts supposedly are going to hold. Colt made millions of these guns even before the other manufacturers jumped on the bandwagon. So they are as common as toothpicks.
In many posts I have read that the Colt is going to hold its value. I dont see it. One of our members works in the trades and talks about he deals in colts at the $700 to $750 range. I value his knowledge and opinions but not here they dont have that kind of value. Our local Wally World has a couple of Colts and a .308 DPMS that have been on their Spinning wheel for well over 6 weeks but the S&W's sell as soon as they get them in the door.
The gun world is made up of strange bedfellows!!!
I can buy Bushmasters not sure of the Model number but they are just the same as the Colts only they dont have H-Bar barrels but they look identical and have the same length of barrels.
These are all trade in's and most of them dont look to have a ton of rounds ran through them. Quite a few people around my area and across Kansas are buying them from this dealer. I really have 3 questions.
1. Where do they come from? They are not select fire so they didnt come from the Military and they are not brand new lowers.
2. Why are the Bushmasters costing more than the Colts, and yes these are real Colts and real Bushmasters.
3. Where is this value that the Colts supposedly are going to hold. Colt made millions of these guns even before the other manufacturers jumped on the bandwagon. So they are as common as toothpicks.
In many posts I have read that the Colt is going to hold its value. I dont see it. One of our members works in the trades and talks about he deals in colts at the $700 to $750 range. I value his knowledge and opinions but not here they dont have that kind of value. Our local Wally World has a couple of Colts and a .308 DPMS that have been on their Spinning wheel for well over 6 weeks but the S&W's sell as soon as they get them in the door.
The gun world is made up of strange bedfellows!!!
Matthew Courtney
Member
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Initial measurements and data:
Our Colt 6920 was recieved with 4 position Rogers SuperStock. The SuperStock turns 5-8 degrees on the reciever extension axis under about 20 ft pounds of torque. It cannot be moved forward or back with handstrength when locked and no movement is observed when getting a cheekweld in normal shooting positions. The handguard rotates 10-12 degrees on the barrel axis under 10 ft pounds of torque and moves forward and back about 3/32's of an inch. There is minimal play between the upper and lower. When pushed together, no light passes through. When pushed apart, light and the corner of a 20 lb sheet of printer paper can pass through the gap, but 2 sheets of paper will not. The carbine weighs 6 pounds 14.8 ounces. The bolt carrier group weighs 11.6 ounces and the bolt is marked "MPC". Our three measurements on an RCBS trigger pull scale were 7-14, 6-8, and 7-8, for an average pull weight of 7 pounds 4.667 ounces.
The M&P 15 Sport has a regular M4 style stock which moves easily forward and back about 1/16 of an inch in all 6 positions and rotates 5-8 degrees with minimal torque. The handguard rotates 3-4 degrees under about 10 ft/lbs of torque and moves forward and back a detectable, but less than 1/64 inch amount under about 30 pounds of force. The Sport weighs 6 pounds 2.7 ounces. The complete bolt carrier group weighs 11.2 ounces and the bolt is marked "MP". The extractor has a doughnut o ring around its spring. Play between the upper and lower is on par with the Colt. Trigger pull measured 6-2, 6-12, and 6-4 for an average of 6 pounds 6 ounces.
Since the Colt was recieved with 2 20 round Colt magazines with black followers, we have purchased 8 of the same for the evaluation. Ditto for the 30 round Pmag shipped with the S&W in that we bought 9 more so each carbine begins with 10 magazines identical to what it was recieved with.
The Colt has a forward assist, an ejection port cover, and a grenade launcher cut which the Sport does not. Both have A2 style flash suppressors and bayonette lugs.
Front sight base markings:
Colt- "F" on the left, "<B>1" on the right
Sport- "A J F" on the left, "o 8 2" on the right
Handguards:
Colt is 2x shielded, 7 3/8 inch front 8 1/16 inch rear circumferences
Sport is not shielded, 6 3/8 inch front, 7 inch rear circunferences
OAL:
Colt 32 13/16- 36 1/8 inches
Sport 32 7/16 - 35 11/16 inches
Extractor spring
Colt- 4 coil with black insert
Sport- 4 coils with black insert and black o ring
Extractor
Colt is "C" marked
Sport is "I" marked
Colt bolt carrier is "C" marked
Barrels:
Colt is marked "C MP 5.56 NATO 1/7"
Sport is marked "5.56 NATO 1/8 5R"
Creep, reset, and overtravel
If we define creep as the distance between when sear movement begins and hammer fall occurs, overtravel as the distance between the triggers breaking point and stopping point , and reset as the distance the trigger must move forward for the disconnector to release, we get the following:
All measurements are of the movement of the tip of the trigger where the trigger is closest to the bottom of the trigger guard. Although the trigger tip moves in an arc, measurements are linear from point to point.
Colt- 3/32 inch creep, 2/32 overtravel, 5/32 reset
Sport- 2/32 creep, 3/32 overtravel, 5/32 reset
100 yards 5 shot groups in inches Sport 095 with Leupold VXIII 3.5-10x50
Lake Charles, La
Error numbers are based upon sample sizes and environmental conditions
Win q3131 1.91
Fed 50 gr jhp 1.631
AE 50 gr tipped Varmint 1.031
Black hills new 69 gr match king hp 2.097
Win 45 gr varmint hp 2.303
Wolf 62 gr fmj 1.707
Fed 62 gr otm 1.645
Speer 63 gr jsp 2.188
Avg of 8............... 1.814 +-.4
avg of 5 55 grains and heavier ......1.909 +-.6
Fed m196 tracer 4.4839
100 yards 5 shot groups in inches Colt 6920 883 with Leupold VXIII 3.5-10x50
Lake Charles, La
Win q3131 2.337
Fed 50 gr jhp 3.817
AE 50 gr tipped Varmint 1.448
Black hills new 69 gr match king hp 2.166
Win 45 gr varmint hp 8.311
Wolf 62 gr fmj 3.016
Fed 62 gr otm 4.238
Speer 63 gr jsp 3.680
Avg of 8............... 3.627 +- .6
avg of 5 55 grains or heavier..... 3.084 +- .8
Fed m196 tracer 4.619
Yesterday evening, we had several experienced shooters try 4 different rifles with populer AR triggers and rate them 1 - 10. Here are the average ratings:
Colt 6920 stock trigger................ 4.0
Bushmaster with ALG ACT............5.7
M&P 15 Sport stock trigger...........6.3
Bushmaster with DPMS 2 stage.....7.8
Trigger feel is very subjective. I believe that before buying a Rifle, one should try that rifle's trigger for oneself.
Our Colt 6920 was recieved with 4 position Rogers SuperStock. The SuperStock turns 5-8 degrees on the reciever extension axis under about 20 ft pounds of torque. It cannot be moved forward or back with handstrength when locked and no movement is observed when getting a cheekweld in normal shooting positions. The handguard rotates 10-12 degrees on the barrel axis under 10 ft pounds of torque and moves forward and back about 3/32's of an inch. There is minimal play between the upper and lower. When pushed together, no light passes through. When pushed apart, light and the corner of a 20 lb sheet of printer paper can pass through the gap, but 2 sheets of paper will not. The carbine weighs 6 pounds 14.8 ounces. The bolt carrier group weighs 11.6 ounces and the bolt is marked "MPC". Our three measurements on an RCBS trigger pull scale were 7-14, 6-8, and 7-8, for an average pull weight of 7 pounds 4.667 ounces.
The M&P 15 Sport has a regular M4 style stock which moves easily forward and back about 1/16 of an inch in all 6 positions and rotates 5-8 degrees with minimal torque. The handguard rotates 3-4 degrees under about 10 ft/lbs of torque and moves forward and back a detectable, but less than 1/64 inch amount under about 30 pounds of force. The Sport weighs 6 pounds 2.7 ounces. The complete bolt carrier group weighs 11.2 ounces and the bolt is marked "MP". The extractor has a doughnut o ring around its spring. Play between the upper and lower is on par with the Colt. Trigger pull measured 6-2, 6-12, and 6-4 for an average of 6 pounds 6 ounces.
Since the Colt was recieved with 2 20 round Colt magazines with black followers, we have purchased 8 of the same for the evaluation. Ditto for the 30 round Pmag shipped with the S&W in that we bought 9 more so each carbine begins with 10 magazines identical to what it was recieved with.
The Colt has a forward assist, an ejection port cover, and a grenade launcher cut which the Sport does not. Both have A2 style flash suppressors and bayonette lugs.
Front sight base markings:
Colt- "F" on the left, "<B>1" on the right
Sport- "A J F" on the left, "o 8 2" on the right
Handguards:
Colt is 2x shielded, 7 3/8 inch front 8 1/16 inch rear circumferences
Sport is not shielded, 6 3/8 inch front, 7 inch rear circunferences
OAL:
Colt 32 13/16- 36 1/8 inches
Sport 32 7/16 - 35 11/16 inches
Extractor spring
Colt- 4 coil with black insert
Sport- 4 coils with black insert and black o ring
Extractor
Colt is "C" marked
Sport is "I" marked
Colt bolt carrier is "C" marked
Barrels:
Colt is marked "C MP 5.56 NATO 1/7"
Sport is marked "5.56 NATO 1/8 5R"
Creep, reset, and overtravel
If we define creep as the distance between when sear movement begins and hammer fall occurs, overtravel as the distance between the triggers breaking point and stopping point , and reset as the distance the trigger must move forward for the disconnector to release, we get the following:
All measurements are of the movement of the tip of the trigger where the trigger is closest to the bottom of the trigger guard. Although the trigger tip moves in an arc, measurements are linear from point to point.
Colt- 3/32 inch creep, 2/32 overtravel, 5/32 reset
Sport- 2/32 creep, 3/32 overtravel, 5/32 reset
100 yards 5 shot groups in inches Sport 095 with Leupold VXIII 3.5-10x50
Lake Charles, La
Error numbers are based upon sample sizes and environmental conditions
Win q3131 1.91
Fed 50 gr jhp 1.631
AE 50 gr tipped Varmint 1.031
Black hills new 69 gr match king hp 2.097
Win 45 gr varmint hp 2.303
Wolf 62 gr fmj 1.707
Fed 62 gr otm 1.645
Speer 63 gr jsp 2.188
Avg of 8............... 1.814 +-.4
avg of 5 55 grains and heavier ......1.909 +-.6
Fed m196 tracer 4.4839
100 yards 5 shot groups in inches Colt 6920 883 with Leupold VXIII 3.5-10x50
Lake Charles, La
Win q3131 2.337
Fed 50 gr jhp 3.817
AE 50 gr tipped Varmint 1.448
Black hills new 69 gr match king hp 2.166
Win 45 gr varmint hp 8.311
Wolf 62 gr fmj 3.016
Fed 62 gr otm 4.238
Speer 63 gr jsp 3.680
Avg of 8............... 3.627 +- .6
avg of 5 55 grains or heavier..... 3.084 +- .8
Fed m196 tracer 4.619
Yesterday evening, we had several experienced shooters try 4 different rifles with populer AR triggers and rate them 1 - 10. Here are the average ratings:
Colt 6920 stock trigger................ 4.0
Bushmaster with ALG ACT............5.7
M&P 15 Sport stock trigger...........6.3
Bushmaster with DPMS 2 stage.....7.8
Trigger feel is very subjective. I believe that before buying a Rifle, one should try that rifle's trigger for oneself.
I will not drink from the Colt Kool-Aid glass and say all other AR rifles are second rate. The Colt M16s they handed us in 1969 in the military all jambed and were junk as far as I was concerned.
When your Colt firearms and buying parts from the cheapest vendor then there is a reason for 100% mil-spec testing. If all your parts are made in house then batch testing is more than good enough.
My son has a MP&15T and I bought a DPMS A2 HBAR as a cost saving measure to be able to shoot with my son. The DPMS is more accurate but the M&P15T is slightly better made.
If my son and I are attacked by zombies I will just shoot the zombies that are at longer range with my DPMS, and let my son do the close range clean up with his M&P 15T
And my DPMS wasn't made by Mattel and goes bang every time I pull the trigger.
When your Colt firearms and buying parts from the cheapest vendor then there is a reason for 100% mil-spec testing. If all your parts are made in house then batch testing is more than good enough.
My son has a MP&15T and I bought a DPMS A2 HBAR as a cost saving measure to be able to shoot with my son. The DPMS is more accurate but the M&P15T is slightly better made.
If my son and I are attacked by zombies I will just shoot the zombies that are at longer range with my DPMS, and let my son do the close range clean up with his M&P 15T
And my DPMS wasn't made by Mattel and goes bang every time I pull the trigger.
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