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Win. 231 .38 Special loads
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I've been shooting 3.8 gr of 231 with a Laser Cast 158 LSWC in my K-38. It's way more accurate than I am, so it's good for pointing out my technique problems.
Steve C
Member
I load 4.5grs for a ballistic duplicate of Winchesters standard load using 158gr LSWC or LRN and 4.7 grs to duplicate their +P load with 158gr LSWCHP's. This data was from Winchester and not Hodgdon's. Velocities are within normal variation one would expect from different handguns vrs the factory published, IE. +/- no more than around 25 fps and varies up and down depending up on the particular gun of the same barrel length used.
TSQUARED
Member
The W-W 14th Ed. reloading manual provides the following data for W-231 in 38 Special:
158 gr. Lead SWC
4.0 gr. W-231 = 745 fps = 12600 psi
4.5 gr. W-231 = 830 fps = 15800 psi
4.7 gr. W-231 = 860 fps = 17100 psi (38Sp +P load)
GyMac
US Veteran
When we talk about W231, we're also talking about HP-38. I use 3.8 grains with a 158 grain SWC. Does anybody have some actual chrono results?
Steve C
Member
The Lyman 47th edition Reloading Handbook shows a max of 5.0 grains with a 358156 155 grain bullet. I've used a lot of it at 4.7 and various 158 SWC with the following results:
Gun: Model 686/4"
Load: 4.7/231 + 158 SWC
Average velocity: 837.7 fps
Extreme spread: 72.86
Standard deviation: 30.61
Gun: Model 15
Load: 4.7/231 + 158 SWC
Average velocity: 868.7 fps
Extreme spread: 23.38
Standard deviation: 10.44
Gun: Model 60/2"
Load: 4.7/231 + 158 SWC
Average velocity: 789.3 fps
Extreme spread: 61.38
Standard deviation: 25.55
Gun: Model 686/4"
Load: 4.7/231 + 158 SWC
Average velocity: 837.7 fps
Extreme spread: 72.86
Standard deviation: 30.61
Gun: Model 15
Load: 4.7/231 + 158 SWC
Average velocity: 868.7 fps
Extreme spread: 23.38
Standard deviation: 10.44
Gun: Model 60/2"
Load: 4.7/231 + 158 SWC
Average velocity: 789.3 fps
Extreme spread: 61.38
Standard deviation: 25.55
AllAces
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For .38 special, 158 gr LSWC (Penn's Bullets), I have tried 3.6 gr W231 and 3.0 gr of Bullseye. At 25 yds, the Bullseye load gave the tightest groups. These were swaged, match grade bullets. The pistol was a S&W, K-38, Target Masterpiece.
GyMac
US Veteran
I always enjoy seeing those actual chronograph results and comparing them with what the manuals say. Thanks very much for posting.
hdfinder47
Member
Been using 4.2 gr for years to load this combo.
I was in a group buy for a custom mould that duplicated the Lyman 358156 bullet, but without the gas check, and with the lube groove moved to center it between the new plain base and the first crimp groove. This bullet has dual crimp groove design, so part of my curiosity/interest was trying this boolit in all of its loading possibilities.
To that end, I grabbed a box of 1x-fired 38 brass which I had previously fired as factory loads in the same revolver about 15 years ago. They're nickle-plated Federal 38s. Sized, primed (WSPs all from same box), and flared the brass, and decided I'd add some Winchester brass in 357 (all from their own same lot) for a full-length loading option and prepped them the same way as the 38s. All the boolits were sized .358" and lubed with 50/50 alox/beeswax only in the lube groove. Alloy was WW +2% tin air-cooled.
I chose 2 loads, both with W231 (all loads loaded out of the same can of powder); 4.4grs & 5.6grs. I loaded both charges in the 38 cases at both the upper crimp groove (loaded short) and the lower crimp groove (loaded long). I also loaded the 5.6gr load at the upper crimp groove (loaded short). Here's how the COALs worked out:
38 Spl (loaded short): 1.442"
38 Spl (loaded long): 1.527"
357 Mag (loaded short): 1.5865"
The test gun is my S&W 686-3 "Midnight Black" (blued stainless) 4"-barreled former duty sidearm. This gun has shot perfect scores with issue factory reloads, so I have confidence in its accuracy abilities. I recently gave this revolver a thorough cleaning in the cylinder to get rid of carbon ring build-up.
The results were interesting. I tried to do accuracy testing simultaneously, but a problem with targets came up (I forgot them...), so only chrono data for now.
38 Spl (loaded short) w/ 4.4grs gave the following velocities (FPS): 875, 900, 895, 882, 877, 890. The average was 887 fps with an ES of 25.
38 Spl (loaded long) w/ 4.4grs gave the following velocities (FPS): error, error, error, 818, 849, 831. The average was 833 fps with an ES of 31. (The errors came from a swarm of tiny insects I didn't notice hanging around the stop screen until the third shot...)
38 Spl (loaded short) w/ 5.6grs gave the following velocities (FPS): 1069, 1095, 1062, 1085, 1079, 1075. *The average was 1078 fps with an ES of 33. (This is NOT a safe 38 load - it's only for use in 357 Magnums!)
38 Spl (loaded long) w/ 5.6grs gave the following velocities (FPS): 1036, 1027, 1026, 1035, 1035, 1018. *The average was 1030 fps with an ES of 18.
357 Mag (loaded short) w/ 5.6grs gave the following velocities (FPS): 1020, 1067, 1046, 1055, 1049, 1053. The average was 1043 fps with an ES of 47.
Note that this is all very consistent with conventional wisdom, with the exception of the 357 with a longer OAL giving higher velocities. My only thoughts are that the Winchester Magnum brass has less capacity, even with a minimally longer COAL.
Although I didn't have targets, I did notice the 5.6gr loads were noticably less accurate than the 4.4 loads. Didn't matter whether it was long- or short-loaded or loaded in the 357 case. I personally believe this has more to do with the powder than anything else. W231 doesn't "like" higher-pressure loads. It can certainly be safely loaded hotter, but accuracy tends to suffer. I've seen this same characteristic in 44 Mag and 10mm Auto loads too (but curiously, not so much in 9mm, where 231 works fine at ~30k psi).
I've used a couple hundred pounds of W231 and have noticed that ocassionally, the burn rate varies wildly in particular lots. Sometimes slower, sometimes faster. I recommend strongly that you use a chronograph, and load to about 800-850 fps, and call it good in the 38 with a 158gr bullet.
To that end, I grabbed a box of 1x-fired 38 brass which I had previously fired as factory loads in the same revolver about 15 years ago. They're nickle-plated Federal 38s. Sized, primed (WSPs all from same box), and flared the brass, and decided I'd add some Winchester brass in 357 (all from their own same lot) for a full-length loading option and prepped them the same way as the 38s. All the boolits were sized .358" and lubed with 50/50 alox/beeswax only in the lube groove. Alloy was WW +2% tin air-cooled.
I chose 2 loads, both with W231 (all loads loaded out of the same can of powder); 4.4grs & 5.6grs. I loaded both charges in the 38 cases at both the upper crimp groove (loaded short) and the lower crimp groove (loaded long). I also loaded the 5.6gr load at the upper crimp groove (loaded short). Here's how the COALs worked out:
38 Spl (loaded short): 1.442"
38 Spl (loaded long): 1.527"
357 Mag (loaded short): 1.5865"
The test gun is my S&W 686-3 "Midnight Black" (blued stainless) 4"-barreled former duty sidearm. This gun has shot perfect scores with issue factory reloads, so I have confidence in its accuracy abilities. I recently gave this revolver a thorough cleaning in the cylinder to get rid of carbon ring build-up.
The results were interesting. I tried to do accuracy testing simultaneously, but a problem with targets came up (I forgot them...), so only chrono data for now.
38 Spl (loaded short) w/ 4.4grs gave the following velocities (FPS): 875, 900, 895, 882, 877, 890. The average was 887 fps with an ES of 25.
38 Spl (loaded long) w/ 4.4grs gave the following velocities (FPS): error, error, error, 818, 849, 831. The average was 833 fps with an ES of 31. (The errors came from a swarm of tiny insects I didn't notice hanging around the stop screen until the third shot...)
38 Spl (loaded short) w/ 5.6grs gave the following velocities (FPS): 1069, 1095, 1062, 1085, 1079, 1075. *The average was 1078 fps with an ES of 33. (This is NOT a safe 38 load - it's only for use in 357 Magnums!)
38 Spl (loaded long) w/ 5.6grs gave the following velocities (FPS): 1036, 1027, 1026, 1035, 1035, 1018. *The average was 1030 fps with an ES of 18.
357 Mag (loaded short) w/ 5.6grs gave the following velocities (FPS): 1020, 1067, 1046, 1055, 1049, 1053. The average was 1043 fps with an ES of 47.
Note that this is all very consistent with conventional wisdom, with the exception of the 357 with a longer OAL giving higher velocities. My only thoughts are that the Winchester Magnum brass has less capacity, even with a minimally longer COAL.
Although I didn't have targets, I did notice the 5.6gr loads were noticably less accurate than the 4.4 loads. Didn't matter whether it was long- or short-loaded or loaded in the 357 case. I personally believe this has more to do with the powder than anything else. W231 doesn't "like" higher-pressure loads. It can certainly be safely loaded hotter, but accuracy tends to suffer. I've seen this same characteristic in 44 Mag and 10mm Auto loads too (but curiously, not so much in 9mm, where 231 works fine at ~30k psi).
I've used a couple hundred pounds of W231 and have noticed that ocassionally, the burn rate varies wildly in particular lots. Sometimes slower, sometimes faster. I recommend strongly that you use a chronograph, and load to about 800-850 fps, and call it good in the 38 with a 158gr bullet.
ArchAngelCD
Moderator, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
One of my favorite loads, if not my favorite load is 4.0gr W231 under a 158gr LSWC. It shoots well for my in all my 38/357 revolvers.
ScottJ
Member
This is where I'm headed. I have some cast from the Lee 358-158-RF loaded over 4.0 HP-38 waiting for me to test.
Tried 3.5 of Bullseye under the same and they were just OK. Not as good as 4.3 or HP-38 under Lee's 358-140-SWC out of the same 4" M&P.
Thinking about trying some Trail Boss too since these tiny charges of powder get swallowed in the .38 case.
Black_Sheep
Member
I just loaded up a batch of those this afternoon...
ArchAngelCD
Moderator, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
ArchAngelCD said:
ScottJ said:
Hey, great minds think alike!!! LOLBlack Sheep said:
GyMac
US Veteran
Now that my adjustable charge bar is on the way, I'll be trying the 4.0 grain load. My standard is 3.8, as that is what my disc gets me. With 4.0 grains, can I expect to be getting around 775-800 fps with a 158 grain SWC?
m657
Member
In all the recipes I've ever loaded over the decades in the cast 38 range, anything from 126g to 158g in any configuration has always proved more accurate that I need or can reliably demonstrate.
My last few years I've grown fond of the 128 conical RNFP, the 148 DEWC, and a 158 RN.
I have taken to avoid the SWC simply because in my 8 shot 627 the moon clips don't insert into the cylinder as easily as the others, and far more of my shooting is with the 627 Vmag than any other 38 special.
It also has come to seem that regardless of powder, any load up to a few grains short of whatever the maximum of THAT powder may be, gives me as good as I need, so I've almost quit searching for "best/most accurate" load.
For now.
My last few years I've grown fond of the 128 conical RNFP, the 148 DEWC, and a 158 RN.
I have taken to avoid the SWC simply because in my 8 shot 627 the moon clips don't insert into the cylinder as easily as the others, and far more of my shooting is with the 627 Vmag than any other 38 special.
It also has come to seem that regardless of powder, any load up to a few grains short of whatever the maximum of THAT powder may be, gives me as good as I need, so I've almost quit searching for "best/most accurate" load.
For now.
ArchAngelCD
Moderator, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
I'm fairly sure you will get right around 750 fps from that load. Amazingly enough with all the 158gr rounds I've fired I have never sent any over the Chrono, sorry...
