Short .45-70 brass from Hornady

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David Sinko

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I was going to reload some Hornady .45-70 brass for a friend. He had purchased this as factory loaded ammo with the LEVERevolution bullet installed. After I resized the cases I measured them and found that they are all 2.040"; the trim-to-length for .45-70 is 2.100". This is a very significant variation which will cause a serious reduction in case capacity, among other things. Why would Hornady do this? I believe it is by design and not an accident. I reload .45-70 brass from Remington, Winchester, Federal and the small primer brass from Buffalo Bore and while they all vary slightly in capacity, they tend to be very uniform in length. Why would Hornady be different?

Dave Sinko
 
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I know the .45 Colt loaded with thier flex tip bullets have the same short case length problem. All I know is it has something to do with the bullet's design needs. I bought a few boxes of their .30-30 with the FTX bullets and I hope I don't have the same issue.
 
To the best of my knowledge all the Leverevolution rounds have brass shortened to accomodate the flex-tip bullets. Rounds loaded with this bullet have an COL to allow feeding from tubular magazines in Leverloading rifles.
 
I think I'll stick with hard cast or JSP's if I have to trim brass. :confused:

I thought about buying some of these things in .444 Marlin a bit back just to have- I don't think so now.
 
they work great in my 45/70, tightes groups i ever shot.
 
This is all starting to make sense now. I was even looking at some of my Cast Performance 440 gr. bullets that don't want to chamber in some of the Guide Guns that have tried them. This is another bullet that is made right at the ragged edge of what a Marlin chamber will or will not tolerate, depending on the condition of the reamer that was used to cut the chamber. I was looking at the Hornady brass and thinking about how it could solve that chambering problem, but I have only a few of those bullets left and don't have to bother. I am no fan of the LEVERevolution bullets in .45-70 and never suspected that Hornady would need to shorten the brass to make it work. Can I now conclude that ALL Hornady .45-70 brass is short, or just SOME of it? I have no interest in loading short brass.

Dave Sinko
 
When they were developed the Leverevolution rounds were not seen as reloadable rounds since the powder was proprietary. Standard brass from Hornady, Remington, Win, Starline will be longer than once fired Leverevolution. If in doubt just order Starline, some of the best around. IMHO
 
The shorter case is a necessity because of the LeveRevolution's sharper bullet profile, i.e., it is overly long for its weight. Therefore, to keep the junction of the bullet's ogive and the cylindrical body above the case mouth at maximum cartridge OAL, the case must be a bit shorter. No problem in reloading these cases with conventional bullets, and contrary to what some of the uninformed superstitions you see on the internet about bullet deeper seating raising pressures, it DOES NOT raise pressures and is perfectly safe.
 
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Contrary to the last post, both my study of the subject and my own experience is that deep seating bullets does indeed raise pressure. While that pressure rise [due to the lessened case volume] might not be crucial in a light load, in a heavier load it could cause difficulty, especially in the 45-70, for which many rifles are weak compared to modern actions. Murphy's Law has a way of intruding itself.

I would ask that poster to reconsider, amend his post or supply substantiation regarding the 45-70 and Hornady brass. If I am mistaken, I will stand corrected.

Regards,

Dyson
 
Dave,
They did that with all of the Leverution (sp) brass to make the longer bullet fit in magazines and such. 44Mag, 45 Colt are about .030" shorter, if memory serves me. Just like you, since I load on a progressive most of the time, I have to either throw them out or change setups.

It would be a good way to segregate brass though. Hornady short ones are your friends, and only his, while yours are standard length. If the OAL is the same, the same charge can be used in each. Bullet crimp may be an issue then..............

Something to consider!
 
Dear fellow SW reloaders. If thou shall go forth and read the Hornady Manual #8 on page 747, 748,750 the truth shall be revealed.

Case trim length is 2.040 for the FTX bullet 325 grains.

"It does reduce case capacity which effects charge weights specifically for that bullet. DO NOT DEVIATE."

This has been a public service announcement.

Had this been a actual emergency.........
 
DGNY said:
Contrary to the last post, both my study of the subject and my own experience is that deep seating bullets does indeed raise pressure. While that pressure rise [due to the lessened case volume] might not be crucial in a light load, in a heavier load it could cause difficulty, especially in the 45-70, for which many rifles are weak compared to modern actions. Murphy's Law has a way of intruding itself.

I would ask that poster to reconsider, amend his post or supply substantiation regarding the 45-70 and Hornady brass. If I am mistaken, I will stand corrected.

Regards,

Dyson
Click to expand...


No reconsideration necessary, as I am absolutely correct and you are absolutely incorrect. You have obviously not done any research on the topic, and in fact there is a lot of it. Your "Experience" means nothing unless you have a pressure barrel. This is the situation: If the bullet is seated more deeply, it has more of a free run to build up velocity before it hits the start of the rifling. Therefore, the peak chamber pressure is actually lowered,not increased. Don't just take my word on it, this is substantiated by actual chamber pressure measurement, and there are many places to look it up, including some reloading manuals.
 
This is directly from Hornady's FTX Load data:
Loading FTX™ bullets requires some specialized techniques in certain cases. To achieve a high ballistic coefficient we had to lengthen the ogive, or nose, of the bullet. Sometimes this requires that the cartridge case to be trimmed shorter than the suggested .010" under SAAMI Max length that we recommend for conventional bullets. Follow prescribed trim lengths exactly as presented in the FTX™ data for optimum results.
Click to expand...
 
DWalt said:
No problem in reloading these cases with conventional bullets, and contrary to what some of the uninformed superstitions you see on the internet about bullet deeper seating raising pressures, it DOES NOT raise pressures and is perfectly safe.
Click to expand...

I beg to differ and suggest you look at the data presented by Hornady(here in this post) and pretty much any other reliable source of reloading information.

As shown by "Skip" for the 357 but applies to any cartridge.

http://www.bbhfarm.com/gallery/album28/aab?full=1
 
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In a HANDGUN or straight walled cartridge things are some different than bottlenecked rifle cartridges.

Pressure is less in a bottleneck rifle when the bullet is seated off of the lands, no doubt about that, but, if you were to compress the powder enough, you will see some real problems with pressure. One place to read about this is in the Lee manual. Richard Lee makes some assessments with a high powered rifle cartridge that are interesting to say the least.

As for straight walled cases, like the 45/70 you can get into trouble thinking that seating depth makes no increase in pressure, friend. Now, you are dealing with slower powders, I understand, but the principle still applies. Look at the 40S&W for instance. Seating depth will raise pressure exponentially and in some cases has caused some firearms to come apart.

So, both of you are kind of right just on different fronts. Be specific with your comments. Apples aren't oranges, just sayin'........;)
 
p.s. If the OAL is the same, the shorter brass is a moot point. Same principle in a 38spl & 357Mag. You can use 38spl cases for 357Mag loads IF, and I said IF, the bullets are exactly the same and they are loaded to the same OAL.

The problem comes in when you take those loads and put them in a 38spl firearm! Not a good thing! ;)
 
All things considered, how does Hornady get away with shortening the case this much and continuing to call it .45-70? Maybe they can conspire with Marlin to cut chambers to take only this shortened case and then call it the .45-70 Hornady? Since they also load the .450 Marlin, they could declare that the "old" .45-70 is obsolete.

Dave Sinko
 
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45/65, maybe? :D

At any rate, I usually throw the Hornady brass for both 44Mag and 45Colt in another coffee can. Maybe, and I mean, maybe, I will use it in the future. I know my Ruger M77/44 will not accept a Leveroution bullet in a case of standard length seated to the crimp groove. It will in the chamber just not in the magazine. If you want a single shot bolt action firearm, fine. Not me.

With the cases seating or headspacing on the rim, the length of the chamber is a non-issue. Just gotta make sure you clean it well before you put normal length brass back in it! ;)
 
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