I was going to reload some Hornady .45-70 brass for a friend. He had purchased this as factory loaded ammo with the LEVERevolution bullet installed. After I resized the cases I measured them and found that they are all 2.040"; the trim-to-length for .45-70 is 2.100". This is a very significant variation which will cause a serious reduction in case capacity, among other things. Why would Hornady do this? I believe it is by design and not an accident. I reload .45-70 brass from Remington, Winchester, Federal and the small primer brass from Buffalo Bore and while they all vary slightly in capacity, they tend to be very uniform in length. Why would Hornady be different?

Dave Sinko

I know the .45 Colt loaded with thier flex tip bullets have the same short case length problem. All I know is it has something to do with the bullet's design needs. I bought a few boxes of their .30-30 with the FTX bullets and I hope I don't have the same issue.

To the best of my knowledge all the Leverevolution rounds have brass shortened to accomodate the flex-tip bullets. Rounds loaded with this bullet have an COL to allow feeding from tubular magazines in Leverloading rifles.

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Revolver luvin' Mountaineer

I think I'll stick with hard cast or JSP's if I have to trim brass.

I thought about buying some of these things in .444 Marlin a bit back just to have- I don't think so now.

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Lost it all in a boat accident

they work great in my 45/70, tightes groups i ever shot.

This is all starting to make sense now. I was even looking at some of my Cast Performance 440 gr. bullets that don't want to chamber in some of the Guide Guns that have tried them. This is another bullet that is made right at the ragged edge of what a Marlin chamber will or will not tolerate, depending on the condition of the reamer that was used to cut the chamber. I was looking at the Hornady brass and thinking about how it could solve that chambering problem, but I have only a few of those bullets left and don't have to bother. I am no fan of the LEVERevolution bullets in .45-70 and never suspected that Hornady would need to shorten the brass to make it work. Can I now conclude that ALL Hornady .45-70 brass is short, or just SOME of it? I have no interest in loading short brass.

Dave Sinko

When they were developed the Leverevolution rounds were not seen as reloadable rounds since the powder was proprietary. Standard brass from Hornady, Remington, Win, Starline will be longer than once fired Leverevolution. If in doubt just order Starline, some of the best around. IMHO

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Revolver luvin' Mountaineer

The shorter case is a necessity because of the LeveRevolution's sharper bullet profile, i.e., it is overly long for its weight. Therefore, to keep the junction of the bullet's ogive and the cylindrical body above the case mouth at maximum cartridge OAL, the case must be a bit shorter. No problem in reloading these cases with conventional bullets, and contrary to what some of the uninformed superstitions you see on the internet about bullet deeper seating raising pressures, it DOES NOT raise pressures and is perfectly safe.

Contrary to the last post, both my study of the subject and my own experience is that deep seating bullets does indeed raise pressure. While that pressure rise [due to the lessened case volume] might not be crucial in a light load, in a heavier load it could cause difficulty, especially in the 45-70, for which many rifles are weak compared to modern actions. Murphy's Law has a way of intruding itself.

I would ask that poster to reconsider, amend his post or supply substantiation regarding the 45-70 and Hornady brass. If I am mistaken, I will stand corrected.

Regards,

Dyson

Dave,
They did that with all of the Leverution (sp) brass to make the longer bullet fit in magazines and such. 44Mag, 45 Colt are about .030" shorter, if memory serves me. Just like you, since I load on a progressive most of the time, I have to either throw them out or change setups.

It would be a good way to segregate brass though. Hornady short ones are your friends, and only his, while yours are standard length. If the OAL is the same, the same charge can be used in each. Bullet crimp may be an issue then..............

Something to consider!

Dear fellow SW reloaders. If thou shall go forth and read the Hornady Manual #8 on page 747, 748,750 the truth shall be revealed.

Case trim length is 2.040 for the FTX bullet 325 grains.

"It does reduce case capacity which effects charge weights specifically for that bullet. DO NOT DEVIATE."

This has been a public service announcement.

Had this been a actual emergency.........

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Still Running Against the Wind

..............someone with a little bit of common sense would be posting..........................

It appears I just did!

You guys can guess and posture all night. When in doubt RT*I

Of course you could go here also:

http://www.hornady.com/support/downloads/load-data

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Still Running Against the Wind

No reconsideration necessary, as I am absolutely correct and you are absolutely incorrect. You have obviously not done any research on the topic, and in fact there is a lot of it. Your "Experience" means nothing unless you have a pressure barrel. This is the situation: If the bullet is seated more deeply, it has more of a free run to build up velocity before it hits the start of the rifling. Therefore, the peak chamber pressure is actually lowered,not increased. Don't just take my word on it, this is substantiated by actual chamber pressure measurement, and there are many places to look it up, including some reloading manuals.

This is directly from Hornady's FTX Load data:

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

I beg to differ and suggest you look at the data presented by Hornady(here in this post) and pretty much any other reliable source of reloading information.

As shown by "Skip" for the 357 but applies to any cartridge.

http://www.bbhfarm.com/gallery/album28/aab?full=1

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Still Running Against the Wind

In a HANDGUN or straight walled cartridge things are some different than bottlenecked rifle cartridges.

Pressure is less in a bottleneck rifle when the bullet is seated off of the lands, no doubt about that, but, if you were to compress the powder enough, you will see some real problems with pressure. One place to read about this is in the Lee manual. Richard Lee makes some assessments with a high powered rifle cartridge that are interesting to say the least.

As for straight walled cases, like the 45/70 you can get into trouble thinking that seating depth makes no increase in pressure, friend. Now, you are dealing with slower powders, I understand, but the principle still applies. Look at the 40S&W for instance. Seating depth will raise pressure exponentially and in some cases has caused some firearms to come apart.

So, both of you are kind of right just on different fronts. Be specific with your comments. Apples aren't oranges, just sayin'........

p.s. If the OAL is the same, the shorter brass is a moot point. Same principle in a 38spl & 357Mag. You can use 38spl cases for 357Mag loads IF, and I said IF, the bullets are exactly the same and they are loaded to the same OAL.

The problem comes in when you take those loads and put them in a 38spl firearm! Not a good thing!

All things considered, how does Hornady get away with shortening the case this much and continuing to call it .45-70? Maybe they can conspire with Marlin to cut chambers to take only this shortened case and then call it the .45-70 Hornady? Since they also load the .450 Marlin, they could declare that the "old" .45-70 is obsolete.

Dave Sinko

45/65, maybe?

At any rate, I usually throw the Hornady brass for both 44Mag and 45Colt in another coffee can. Maybe, and I mean, maybe, I will use it in the future. I know my Ruger M77/44 will not accept a Leveroution bullet in a case of standard length seated to the crimp groove. It will in the chamber just not in the magazine. If you want a single shot bolt action firearm, fine. Not me.

With the cases seating or headspacing on the rim, the length of the chamber is a non-issue. Just gotta make sure you clean it well before you put normal length brass back in it!

"It does reduce case capacity which effects charge weights specifically for that bullet. DO NOT DEVIATE."

Direct from Hornady Manual, but what do they know?

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Still Running Against the Wind

Well, they don't know the difference between affect and effect.

I consider the difference trivial UNLESS you are loading at the utter maximum where a little less working volume would matter.

Trying to use the dadblasted short stuff for conventional loads is the great aggravation. Regular .45-70 is not overly long in the first place. A new Remington case here measures 2.094".

So far the point of the shorter brass has been missed. The brass is shorter so that the loaded round with the longer bullet will work through the action of the Marlin 1895 or an 1886 Winchester, just as the handgun rounds are shorter so that they will not stick out the front of the cylinder. I've been loading these since they appeared. First one must segregate the Hornady's from the WW's, R-P's, etc. If one desires to load the LeverEvolution 325 bullet in the 45-70 for use in a Marlin or Winchester lever gun, the Hornady cases are the way to go. You'll have to adjust the expander die, seater die, and crimp die accordingly(actually, if one loads all cases, two sets of dies might be better). Simply use the data provided by Hornady for the 325 bullet and go. For other bullets and/or rifles the traditional brass will work fine. The 325 bullet will work in single shots loaded in traditional brass. Send me the Hornady brass if you don't want it. Bob! PS. Hornady did the same thing with 450 & 444 Marlin brass for the same reasons.

Absolutely true. The reason is not because of the shorter brass but because the bullet is longer, MUCH LONGER, which causes the seating depth to increase, or case capacity decrease, however you want to look at it, making less room in the case for powder.

This is the main reason I do not shoot too heavy for caliber jacketed bullets.

They simply sit too deep in the case to make it worth while having them.

Case in point: Awhile back, folks were talking about a 400gr 44Mag load. I said: "Why?" With a 300gr bullet, even from a carbine, you are losing 300fps at least. Short distance, okay, got that. The whole idea of the carbine though is to take advantage of the longer barrel getting a flatter shooting round. More velocity and such. By using the heavier bullets, case capacity is reduced to the point that you lose all you could gain. Just me though.

FWIW

Effect can also be used as a verb.

As a verb, to effect means "to bring about, lead to a result"

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Still Running Against the Wind

Well, well - thanks for reading my post. I was trying to be polite. Please also note my concern, indirectly stated by me, that a blanket statement about deep seating can and will lead a novice to trouble, because such a reloader will tend to overlook any effect of a greater jump to rifling; and he will plow ahead with both deep seating AND short run through leade.

This is my last post on this subject.

Regards,

Dyson

I suppose this is a good reason for buying the latest up to date books. I had recently bought the #7 book just as I heard about a new one. My loss.

Don't need no stinkin' manuals! All you need is to listen to folks from upstate New York!

If I do decide to load normal heavy cast bullets into these short cases, will they function through the Marlin action when fed through the tube? I have shot some really weird stuff through my Guide Gun, like .457" round ball and 255 gr. RNFP sized .454" for the .45 Colt, and gotten very good results, but I treat the gun as a single shot when I use these loads. The owner of this brass wanted some plain base 405 gr. hard cast bullets at somewhat less than full throttle. I figure I can't go wrong if I leave just enough air space to hear a charge of IMR 4198 rattle around when I shake the cartridge. Is there specific loading data for these short cases and normal bullets? I load .45-70 single stage so I may as well re-adjust my two dies and stop complaining.

Dave Sinko

Dave,
How much short are the cases from 2.105"?

Them's the very folks mama told me I should keep at arm's length for sure!!!

Wow! Didn't know they was shorter! I got a box of Leverlution or whatever it's called from a co-worker who bought it before I told him not to fire it in his 1884 Trapdoor. I traded him for 20rd of my pet Trapdoor , cast bullet handload. Traded him because I also have a Marlin 1895 I figured I could shoot them in.

So I decided I'm going to reload this stuff with a hard cast 405 gr. bullet. This Hornady brass holds 4.0 grs. less IMR 4198 than does a normal case. I seat the bullets and try to crimp, but my RCBS die will not crimp the short case! The handle of the press comes to a dead stop somewhere on the down stroke and I can not apply any kind of crimp. Now I am thoroughly disgusted, as I have loaded all 20 and don't feel like pulling all 20 of them. In desperation I grab a .45 ACP taper crimp die and it at least removes the flair from the case mouth and will allow the cartridge to chamber. This is far more trouble than it's worth. Not only does Hornady get away with making a short case and still calling it ".45-70" but I can't even load it with .45-70 dies!

Dave Sinko

+1, thats the reason.

Tom

That short brass might make it possible to crimp into the canelure of the Remington 405gr JSP and stay under 2.6" for the Marlin 1895. Just in case you aren't real interested in putting Hornady fodder back into those cases.