My local indoor ranges requires the use of plated bullets like X-treme or berry's due to lead issues. Being a newbie, I would like to purchase a small amount of .38/.357 and .44 of the plated flat points which have a cannelure. I understand that during crimping there is potential to damage the copper which is a big negative. Can the copper plated bullet w/cannelure be lightly roll crimped without damage or is a taper crimp the better way to go so they aren't damaged? These will be used in my revolvers, loaded on a progressive press with a separate crimp station.

I have been reading that the carbide LEE factory crimp die is the way to go here. Anybody using these with success with plated bullets? LEE also offers a Taper crimp die (not carbide I think) in many calibers. Anybody using these with success? I'm considering purchasing and suspect I only need one or the other, but wanted to get some feedback from the folks here. Does the LEE FCD do the taper crimp as well? If so, then maybe it makes sense to get the FCD. How do I manage this?
Thanks

is this in a revolver or semi auto? if its in a semi auto you cannot roll crimp as the cartridge headspaces off the mouth of the case. semi autos must be taper crimped. in a revolver you MUST roll crimp so the recoil doesnt force the bullet further into the case creating excess pressures. they are two different dies, and if your taper crimping your better off doing it in a seperate operation on its own. copper plated bullets are no more suspect to damage by crimping then lead. you just have to make sure your dies are adjusted correctly and even then your more likely to crush the case then bother the bullet.

edit; sorry i was reading so fast i missed where you said revolver. in a revolver it needs to be roll crimped.

I use the FCD on every caliber I reload for. They come in two styles. If your cartridge is for an autoloader, it will be a taper crimp die. If it's for a revolver, it will be a roll crimp die. It's pretty hard to make a mistake.

EarlFH

The biggest mistakes come in too much crimp, If using bullets with a crimp ring, then crimp to the desired level but for the plated bullets you don't want to go too heavy. Bullets like the berry's usually are recommended to be loaded to cast bullet velocities which don't require a heavy crimp. That being said I load a lot of berry's and rainier bullets to jacketed levels with no issue, that's in standard 38sp, +p and 357 loads, using moderate crimp. Just don't go crazy with the crimp and you'll be ok.

Yes, the Lee FCD for revolvers ROLL crimps. If your plated bullets have a cannelure you can gently roll crimp them. You can experiment as to how much to crimp before it will cut through the plating. Set it to a 1/2 turn and then use a kinetic (mistake hammer) and pull the bullet. Try again with more crimp until you find the max and then back off. Unless you are loading full house max loads in the magnums I would just roll crimp enough to keep the bullets from moving.

Yes, they sell a taper crimp for revolvers but have never used it myself.

Lee Precision: Taper Crimp Die

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Still Running Against the Wind

Thank You. I have Dillon dies, no LEE dies. My dies already do a roll crimp for these calibers so I'm interpreting this as not needing to buy the FCD and get any additional benefit from using it? I should be fine with my current dies as long as I experiment with the gentle roll crimp. I like your suggestion with doing some dummy loads, this will give me a feel and background for where the crimp needs to be so it won't breech the coating.

Correct, you do not "need" the LFCD. Their seating dies will also roll crimp. Some folks do not like the FCD on lead as it may resize a lead bullet that you want a little oversized.

I run everything through the FCD mainly because I have a 4 stage turret and and have to pull the handle anyway. It is a wasted stroke for revolver ammo though. For semi auto I think it is great as it can not over taper crimp and mess up the headspace.

So, bottom line, just roll crimp them with your dies and find the "breaking" point. Plated bullets should not exceed 1200 fps anyway.

What plated bullets have a cannelure?

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Still Running Against the Wind

X-treme Bullets has them and they actually are sending me a handful of freebies to try before I buy quantity. Montana Gold and Rocky mountain reloads have them as well. It's not a traditional lead type cannelure but more of a stippling of the surface.

I probably taper crimp as many revolver rounds as I roll crimp. It all depends on the load and the powder.

I have Lee CFCD's and I use them for full length sizing of my revolver rounds and for my 40 S&W bulge busting.

For plated rounds I would normally taper crimp unless the powder required a stronger crimp. And if it did, I would have to wonder if I made the correct choice for selecting a load. If you decide to roll crimp, make sure your brass length is very uniform.

I USED both, heavy on the used.

All kidding aside, they are fine for most firearms. When you go to shoot cast bullets in a larger than normal bore, i.e. Marlin 1894 in 44Mag, you will not be able to use Dillon Square Deal B dies nor the Lee Factory Crimp Die. When using them, the cast bullet gets resized and you lose any advantage you might have gained by having bigger bullets.

If you can get by with .429" or .430" bullets, use it. If not, and you need .431" or even larger, as I do, get a standard seating/crimp die and use it instead. Seat with one, crimp with the other. Much better.

As far as the taper crimp dies, for any automatic cartridge, they are the cat's meow.

Hope this helps.

IMO, the LFCD is "an ingenious solution to a non existent problem". In my own experience w/ plated bullets in the 45acp, accuracy was actually reduced vs a taper crimp. So no LFCD for me in any caliber. I have managed to reload accurate, reliable ammo for 35yrs w/o one. These test targets were fired @ 50ft. Granted, the diff isn't a lot, but it is there & will show up as distance increases. This test was repeated twice w/ sim results.

I use it in rifle, specially .308, not in handguns yet.

Regards,
Guy

You must be using the wrong die. The FCD for the 45 ACP, is a taper crimp die. It just crimps a little more accurately, than a standard taper crimp die. It does not crush the bullet. If you're using a FCD with the collet type of crimp, then it is not for the 45 ACP.

EarlFH

Earl, there are two different types of LFCD for the 45ACP. One is the standard type, the one that sizes the outside of the case as well as provides a crimp. There is a taper crimp die too. Two different animals, friend. Same for 9mm and while I am not sure, there should be one for the 40S&W as well.

Guy, there is quite a difference between the pistol and rifle types of LFCD too. The one you use is a collet type and only does the neck of the case. Again, the pistol dies are not that way.

There are some available that employ the same type of crimp as the rifle dies but they are special ones. Ranch Dog Outdoors has them in stock and are a NECESSITY if you are trying to crimp large lead bullets for use in a Marlin 1894 in 44Mag. Here is a link to their site:
44 Mag Factory Crimp Die [44MFCD] - $20.00 : Ranch Dog Outdoors, Ranch Dog Outdoors - Lee Special Order Bullet Molds for Leverguns and semi-auto Handguns

I don't have one of these either. I chose to use the way I mentioned in the above post.


FWIW

Exactly what I was saying. I use them on everything I reload for. Pistol, revolver, and rifle. The one that fredj338 was talking about, evidently was the collet die, as he said it was deforming the bullets, and making them in-accurate. The correct FCD for the 45 ACP, IS a taper crimp, that doesn't deform the bullets. There is a normal taper crimp die, that is made by most all of the manufacturers, then there is the LEE FCD taper crimp die, which works slightly differently, but does the same job, and resizes the rounds to minimum SAMMI specs,(for autoloaders), Then there is a roll crimp FCD die for revolver rounds, which also resizes the rounds, and there is the collet type FCD crimp die, for rifles.(mainly).
We are talking about the same thing, but describing it diffrently.
EarlFH

Earl,
I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you about what we are describing. They are TWO completely different animals with a THIRD option available from Ranch Dog.

This is the Taper Crimp Die:
Lee Precision: Taper Crimp Die



The Factory Crimp Die:

Lee Precision: Carbide Factory Crimp Die

And the Ranch Dog special collet crimp die above.

It is a known fact that a LFCD, and I am not talking about the collet nor the taper crimp dies, will resize your lead bullet while it is in the brass. Been proven over and over and over and over and over and.............you get my drift.

So, we are NOT talking about the same thing.

Respectfully,
Skip

A big resounding "+1" for Skip. LEE FCD are the kiss of death for lead bullets in handguns. They do okay in rifles however, since they don't have that accursed sizing ring in the rifle dies.

OK, I give up! I've only just started using them, about thirty years ago. I've used them on about every conceivable type of rounds, and bullets, and never encountered the problem that you are having. I've even had the factory make up FCD's for wildcat cartridges, which they will gladly do. The only way I can imagine that happening, is if the bullets weren't sized properly, because they resize, only to mimimum SAMMI specs, to insure feeding in any factory chambering.
I won't run my mouth any more. Just thought I could help. Hope you get it all figured out, OK.

Good luck,
Earl.

Earl,
Do you load for a Marlin 1894 rifle? Are any of your firearms blessed with an overachieving barrel (large for caliber)? Do you cast your own bullets?

Let me give you a case in point: My Marlin 1894 44Mag. It has a slow twist rate, 1:38". It is also sized to .431"! Now, I cast bullets. I bought a mould that would cast .434" just for the purpose of having a bullet that was over .002" bore size. When I ran them through my LFCD my accuracy fell off, 6" at 100 yards. Acceptable for some, not for me.
Bullets were sized to .431", just because I couldn't get a bigger sizing die very quickly, and I stopped using the LFCD. Groups went to 1 1/2" from the same rifle at the same distance and at 1800fps. Now, to me, that proves that they have some affect on oversized lead bullets and sometimes that is a bad thing.

Now, if you need to have them resized, so they chamber every time, sure, use them. That is what they are for. I use one for my 45ACP reloads. Why? Because the bore is the right size and I want them to feed correctly.

I use them for my rifle rounds too. .30/06 and others. They really work well for them. I am contemplating getting one for my .358/25 WSSM wildcat cartridge too but it will not work like the pistol ones do but like a rifle one.

The dies you got for your wildcat cartridges, are they rifle ones, with the collet?

Skip,
I don't cast my own bullets. It never seemed to be worth it to me. I buy ready cast bullets. I do have an 1894 Marlin, 44 Mag. I load it with the same bullets that I use in my handguns. It's a pre- safety, with the micro groove barrel. I buy my bullets from a man here in Montana, who hard casts them, and will size to anything you want. They are the LBT style bullets,which I really like. I can see, now, why you are having the problem. You would need to have a custom FCD made, so it didn't squeeze them down to SAMMI specs, but left them oversized.
My rifle loads are for the 308W,and 30-06, with the collet dies. I also load for a 45-70, but that takes a rolled crimp.
My wildcat dies, are for a Bowen custom, 458 Maximum cartridge, that Hamilton Bowen made up for me. It's a 458 W. brass, cut down to 1.6", and reamed out inside. It fires 350, and 400 grain bullets, .458 diameter.
The other 'wildcat' I was talking about, is not actually a wildcat, but a 480 Ruger. When they first came out, there were no FCD's made for them, so I ordered a custom set from LEE. They are both, rolled crimp cartridges.
LEE has a very reasonable charge for wildcats. They require three dummy cartridges, to be sent to them, for sizing, and I believe that they charged $25.00, at the time I bought mine.

Earl.

Earl,
See, I knew we would get to the bottom of this!

Where in Montana if you don't mind me asking. Visited some off and on in the Bitteroot Valley, around Florence and north.

Just curious.

Have a good one!

p.s.Do you have one of his 44 caliber bullets handy? Could you mic them for me and let me know how big they are?

Curious

Skip,
I live in the Southwestern portion of the State. city of Three Forks.(OK, more like a small town.)
The 44's I have mic at 430, and the 480's mic at .476.(the 480 Ruger is actually like a 475 Special. I guess 480 sounds bigger.)

Earl.

Yeah, we'll, that is probably the reason you don't see what I am seeing. Without the case being run through a LFCD with a bullet of the size I need to work in the Marlin, there is a decent buldge in the case at the base of the bullet. Run the LFCD over it and the buldge goes away.


FWIW

Thanks for the confab about it! Have a good weekend!

You don't have to use a bullet with a cannelure to use the factory crimp die. As was mentioned previously, the usual issue with roll crimping is too much crimp. Take a factory jacketed bullet and look at it closely under a magnifying glass. There is a slight crimp that rolls the mouth of the case inward into the bullet, making an almost seamless transition from case to bullet. Try to copy that in your crimp. Make dummy rounds before you load with primer & powder to get all or your dies set the way you need. Overall length is important here, so use an accurate caliper to measure. Follow the instructions for the factory crimp die, using the lightest amount of crimp first and inspect under the magnifying glass to see if you have what you want. Make a few dummy rounds with different amounts of crimp to compare. Be sure to seat the bullet to the correct OAL, using your caliper. You can always go with more, but cannot undo too much crimp. If you split the plating, you have gone too far. If I remember the directions, start with about a half turn more of adjustment after firming the die to the seated bullet. Check your crimp and adjust from there. You will be pleased with the results. I load Berrys plated 158 gr flat points and they work very well. Best wishes,
RR

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the bullets tend to pull forward (out of the case) in a revolver, sometimes enough to lock up the action. Hence the need for a strong crimp with heavier loads.

You are right.

Sorry Earl, but you are not correct. They make one FCD for the 45acp, taper crimp, but w/ a sizing ring, that is the one I use. It uses a carbide ring to resize the round as loaded. This causes the bullet to get sized smaller if the brass is slightly thicker. Again, 100s of 1000 of rds loaded w/o the LFCD, it's just not needed & with some bullet types in some calibers, it can have an inverse affect on accuracy. The targets don't lie. THis gets debated often but those like me that have tried them know they do NOT work for every bullet type. I would be fine using it w/ jacketed, but why? They do nothing that a std taper crimp die won't do w/ no degredation of accuracy.
http://leeprecision.com/xcart/CARBID...DIE-45ACP.html

Don't put primers in those dummy loads. I can guran-darn-tee you that one of those will find it's way into your bag & you'll have a stuck bullet.

Guess how I know...