W231 for .38 spl. "FBI" load?

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PeterCartwright

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I've been on a .38 spl. kick for a while. This is probably an old inquiry, but I'm wondering how W231 compares with the classic Unique loads to replicate the "FBI" type loads. (I'm hoping to get about 900 fps from 4" k frames with the LSWCHP projectiles). I've used W231 for standard loads but haven't done any chronograph work with it.

On a related topic, what's the current "state of the art" propellants for the venerable .38 spl.? Are there lower pressure/higher velocity offerings available to the handloading public?

PC
 
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Thanks, Rule3. That was a TON of information. Looks like I need to explore HS-6. I've never used that propellant. I'd be a happy camper if I could safely work up to 7 gr., based on the data in the thread. I'll do some more research. I have no inclination to attempt BB's +P load performance.

PC
 
ArchAngleCD is our resident expert on HS6. He has it for breakfast:D If he sees this thread he will no doubt be all over it!

I bought a box of BB 158 +P to try in a alloy J frame (642) it is Brutal! I see no need for that, I'll stick with +P Gold Dots.

He even got me to buy some. Good powder that delivers a lot without the major pressure build up.

Go to the Hodgdons website and you can compare the FPS with pressure. The data is for FMJ (XTP) but can be used for lead due to less pressure.

http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp


Case: Winchester Barrel Length: 7.7" Twist: 1:18.75" Trim Length: 1.145" Primer: Winchester SP 38 Special +P
Cartridge Load Data Starting Loads
Maximum Loads
Bullet Weight (Gr.) Powder Bullet Diam. C.O.L. Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure 158 GR. HDY XTP H4227 .357" 1.455" 11.0 964 17,600 CUP 158 GR. HDY XTP Longshot .357" 1.455" 5.5 965 17,000 PSI 158 GR. HDY XTP SR 4756 .357" 1.455" 5.5 928 17,900 PSI 158 GR. HDY XTP HS-6 .357" 1.455" 6.6 926 18,700 CUP 158 GR. HDY XTP AutoComp .357" 1.455" 5.0 885 17,000 PSI 158 GR. HDY XTP Universal .357" 1.455" 4.7 837 19,200 CUP 158 GR. HDY XTP HP-38 .357" 1.455" 4.6 807 18,100 CUP 158 GR. HDY XTP SR 7625 .357" 1.455" 4.7 881 17,800 PSI 158 GR. HDY XTP PB .357" 1.455" 4.1 836 17,900 PSI 158 GR. HDY XTP Titegroup .357" 1.455" 4.3 905 19,300 CUP 158 GR. HDY XTP 700-X .357" 1.455" 4.0 866 18,500 PSI
 
I bought a couple boxes of BB's "standard pressure" LSWC-HPs, but I haven't had a chance to try them. (I'm setting up a very nice 36-1 round butt I found a few weeks ago. I thought it would be a perfect teaching gun for my wife AND if she warms to this platform, I'll help her with other "accessories". I also thought the standard pressure BB stuff would be a wonderful carry load for that gun without abusing the platform. Actually, I shot the 36 with both Speer's short barrel +P load and Remington's "FBI" +P and couldn't tell any difference in recoil. That may be because of the Crimson Trace LG 305's, which do a good job of soaking up shock. Anyway, I digress...)

I have a hunch that any soft 158 gr. lead hollow point doing 900 f.p.s. or better will serve .38 Special purposes pretty darned well. I know I can get there safely with Unique, but I'd rather find something that would meter a bit better. I'll follow up with HS-6.

PC
 
It only takes around 4.5 grs of 231 to reach 900 fps in my 4" md 10-5
with a hard cast 158 gr bullet. It probably would require just a bit more
powder to reach 900 fps with a swaged bullet but if this is the level
of performance you seek then there is no reason why you can't do so
safely with 231.
 
Like said above, as much as I like W231 I don't feel it can be used to replicate the FBI load and stay within SAAMI limits. I feel you need a slower powder to do so. I did work up a FBI replica load using HS-6 that is probably within the 20,000 PSI SAAMI pressure limits bit it's probably right there at 19,800 PSI. That's a guess using several data sources and reloading software. I wish I had a way to test real pressures!!!

I suggest using a Magnum primer with HS-6 and work up slowly until you get the velocity you're looking for. I got an AV of 927 fps from a 4" barrel and 889 fps from a 2" barrel.

The load I developed is considered "hot" by most and does exceed the max recommended charge from Hodgdon. If you use it don't blame me if there's a problem. That said I don't feel it's over the original .38 Special +P pressure limits of 20,000 PSI though it probably exceeds the current limits of 18,500 PSI. I've been shooting it for well over a year from a M642 and M638 without a problem.

Winchester .38 Special +P case
158gr Hornady LSWC/HP
CCI 550 Primer
HS-6 (charge weight is too high over published data to post)
COL 1.475"
4" M686 ---- 2" M640
927.0 -- AV --- 888.9
955.1 --- H --- 897.1
905.4 --- L --- 876.6
49.7 ---- ES --- 20.5
20.7 ---- SD ---- 7.9
17.0 ---- AD ---- 5.9

Good luck and be careful!
 
Last edited:
I gather HS6 is a ball powder? I note that my older Speer manual-No. 11-calls for magnum primers for it's HS6 loads. I also see that No. 11 lists "standard pressure" limits @ 18,900 CUP and +P @ 22,400 CUP. Perhaps the data from my older manual is a bit outdated (read: less careful?).

I can see I need to delay load development for this project until I've purchased a chronograph.

PC
 
The listed data from Hodgdon online for 38+P with HS 6 and a 158gr XTP is 6.6 grs. If you use a lead bullet the pressure will be less.

With that said, it is a good starting point and probably all you really need in the overall scheme of things.

JMO but the gains of pushing the envelope to gain another 50-100 FPS at a self defense distance are not really worth it. Kind of a diminishing return thing.

This post will self destruct in 10 seconds and I disavow any knowledge of it.:)




158 GR. HDY XTP HS-6 .357" 1.455" 6.6 926 18,700 CUP
 
A couple of loads chronographed in my 4" S&W md 10-5;
Win brass, WSP primer, 4.2 grs Titegroup, TV 158 gr SWC = 906 fps
Win brass, WSPM primer,4.6 grs 231, TV 158 gr SWC = 923 fps.
Neither of these loads would be considered " hot " and the 231 load is
listed as standard pressure in some manuals. Again a hard cast bullet
is used rather than a swaged HP but I doubt that for defense it would
really matter very much.
 
HS-6 and WW231 are the same powder. How can one be ok and not the other?
Randy
 
Excuse me but HS6 and 231 are most certainly NOT the same powder. 231 and HP38 are the same. I believe that HS6 is duplicated by WW540, but I'm way open to correction on that.
 
alwslate said:
A couple of loads chronographed in my 4" S&W md 10-5;
Win brass, WSP primer, 4.2 grs Titegroup, TV 158 gr SWC = 906 fps
Win brass, WSPM primer,4.6 grs 231, TV 158 gr SWC = 923 fps.
Neither of these loads would be considered " hot " and the 231 load is
listed as standard pressure in some manuals. Again a hard cast bullet
is used rather than a swaged HP but I doubt that for defense it would
really matter very much.
Click to expand...

Interesting. Your 10-5 certainly seems to milk the most from those loads! (I have a pet 10-5 as well). I'm looking for a viable defensive load that isn't overly "hot" (pressure wise). How did these loads group?

PC
 
I have used W231 for years, and is my "go to" powder in most handgun calibers. (not 44 Spec). My load comes out of the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, (old third edition) and is 4.9 gr. 231 behind a 158 gr cast RNFP, which yields 906 FPS and ls listed as the "Potentially most Accurate load", which in my guns is less than 2" at 25 yds. It is listed as "Not +P", +P starts at 5.0 gr.. For a 158 gr SWC I use 4.7 gr and it does just about 890 FPS.
 
H Richard said:
I have used W231 for years, and is my "go to" powder in most handgun calibers. (not 44 Spec). My load comes out of the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, (old third edition) and is 4.9 gr. 231 behind a 158 gr cast RNFP, which yields 906 FPS and ls listed as the "Potentially most Accurate load", which in my guns is less than 2" at 25 yds. It is listed as "Not +P", +P starts at 5.0 gr.. For a 158 gr SWC I use 4.7 gr and it does just about 890 FPS.
Click to expand...

I have that Lyman handbook. I hadn't looked at it in a while. I'm grateful to all those who have responded. It certainly looks like I can quite easily get to 900ish fps in a number of ways with a 158 gr. LSWCHP in a 4" gun while maintaining pretty tame pressures.

PC
 
PeterCartwright said:
Interesting. Your 10-5 certainly seems to milk the most from those loads! (I have a pet 10-5 as well). I'm looking for a viable defensive load that isn't overly "hot" (pressure wise). How did these loads group?

PC
Click to expand...

I have not fired any of these loads for groups yet so cannot
speak to that but I can tell you that there is nothing special
about my 10-5. I bought it used at a gun show 20 - some yrs
ago complete with bubba's plier marks on the ejector rod. It
has been fired way more than any other S&W I own simply
because I use it for chronographing my handloads for the
sake of consistancy. I decided to fire the 4.6 231 load listed
above through two other 4" guns I own that have been fired
very little, a no dash 64 and a 38/44 HD. The HD averaged the
same 923 fps as the md. 10 and the 64 did a bit better at
934 fps. Looking at the data for 231 and cast bullets in the
Lyman Pistol and Revolver manual I tried two more loads in
the HD, 4.8 grs, listed as standard pressure and 5.1 grs 231,
listed as +P. 4.8 grs ran 936 fps and 5.1 grs ran 973 fps in
the 4" 38/44 HD. W231 powder is very popular for loading
38 spl and deservedly so it would seem.
 
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