Just trying to get an idea of what kinds of loads other folks are using for a .38 Spec. 158 SWCHP with W-231 powder.
I'm currently using 4.2 grains. Just wondering how hot/cool this load is compared to others.

I use 4.0 grains of HP-38/W 231. I consider it a good middle-of-the-road load.

I also usually use 4.0 of W231 for decent target loads. That's with 158 lead, either TC or SWC.

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Pete.

In a 4" bbl, gives a power factor aobut 115. This is good enough for the new IDPA/SSP criterion, but it is below minor for USPSA, and a touch low for ICORE.

If you've just plinking and don't have to make any power factor, then who cares?

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Science plus Art

Hope to see some good load data on this one. I cast my own from an old Ideal/Lyman mould #358429 (Keith's bullet).

I'm hoping to work up a good carry load with them. I use to find casting my own a fun hobby. Now days, it's a necessity more or less and using them for plinking/target work ain' t in the picture.

Thanks,

Murphy2000

You mention that the bullet is a L HP. So are you more concerned with a self defense or just target/plinking??

Not saying it's "hot" but 4.2 is actually above the Hodgdons load data max.

I usually use 4.0'ish

If you want SD loads then there are better powders for that.

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Still Running Against the Wind

Mainly plinking and kickin' around in the woods.
I'd settled on 4.2 simply because that's the load the hits closest to my point of aim with the sights on my 4.75" Cimarron Model P Jr.. I was just wondering how hot it was compared to what others are shooting.

With HP 38/W 231 that load is just fine, actually on the "warm" side based on Hodgdons data. But not really as the 38 special for taget is not a barn burner anyway

I looked in Lymans Cast manual and it is the same or less.

I stated I use 4'ish as that's what my Lee Disc throws

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Still Running Against the Wind

With my Lee discs I can get 3.8 or 4.2, so I got an adjustable charge bar. Not that it really made any difference in what I do with my loads (blow holes through paper).

I load Speer 158gr LSWCHP's on top of 4.5grs to 4.7 grs of W231. I've used these loads for years and they fall within Speer No.13's current .38 spl +P book loads. Originally the data came from the Free Winchester online data with the 4.7grs listed as +P and the 4.5grs listed as standard pressure. These loads in Winchester cases using WSP primers chrono from my 4" revolvers at Wiunchesters published velocity for Standard (4.5grs) and +P ammo with any of the 158gr lead bullets (solid and HP's).

From my 4" S&W 66 the 4.5gr load ran an average of 822 fps the 4.7gr load averaged 879 fps.

Help me out here. Consensus seems to be 4.0 or a little more for a good 158 target load. I am fairly new to reloading, but I have gone to the Hodgdon website for HP-38 which I am using, and pulled up the load recipes. For 158 LSWC it lists 3.1 gr as starting, with 3.7 gr/834 fps as Max. Where do you find a recipe for anything over that-especially as high as 4.5-4.7 gr?
Granted, the 158 load on the chart I am looking at seems to be abnormally low, but this is what the powder manufacturer is putting out. Is it an error?
Any help in understanding this would be appreciated.
Thanks.

For light range loads I use 3.5 grains. Kills paper just fine. Why waste powder?

Look at the pressures. Not only are there no +P loads in the chart you referenced, and the loads and pressures shown are light even or regular .38.

Other manuals show +P lead loads.
To answer your original question directly, the HP38/W 231 hard cast lead load that reaches standard pressure max load with the lead bulets I use is 4.4gr.
The 3.7 load cited in Hodgdon is a couple thousand CUP below max. ALways compare the pressure shown in the loading chart to the SAAMI standards. Lead bullet charts may stop below SAAMI max pressure to avoid leading. In that case, get another loading manual to find loads nearer the SAAMI standard max, or +P. Don't guess, and don't start with max +P loads. Be sure you know what bullet it is for.

Thousands of competitors have used a "mild" +P to make minor power (PF 125) with the 158gr bullet, and shot loads around 4.5gr in the tens of thousands in various K and L frames. The reason IDPA dropped their power factor to 105 for Stock Service Revolver is that no standard .38 load makes PF125, and they did want people to have to reload or buy factory +P.

So your 4.2 is within SAAMI specs for a standard .38, if your bullets are the same as mine. "Not too cold, not too hot."

With lead bullets using HP38/W231, you can load usually down near 3gr without sticking the bullet. Don't try that low with jacketed bullets!

Much ado is made about old manuals being different than new manuals. OK, lets use 2 loads from the current 49th edition Lyman manual, which shows for their #358311 160gr bullet, the max load in .38 Special for W231 is 4.9gr giving 16,800CUP for 906fps. Their #358665 158gr bullet recommends 4.0gr W231 for 15,900CUP giving only 837fps.

Big difference.

Why? The bullets are different. Different bullets seal differently and not all lead bullet loads are interchangeable just because the weight is similar.

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Science plus Art

I've settled on this for Hornady swaged 158 gr. I've tried as low as 3.2 but found that rather dirty. The highest I've ever loaded 158 gr cast was 3.8 gr and that seemed to shoot very well. I know people load higher but I've never found the need to do so (and since some of my guns are decades old why be any harder on them than necessary).

VMI77,
I'm not looking at it now, but if I recall correctly, I got my load data from the Lee manual that showed a do not exceed load of 3.5 gr. of 231.

BTW, from your user name, did you graduate from VMI in '77? I have a good friend and former coworker that graduated from there in '74.

You are entirely correct. The current data on the web site is lower 3.1 to 3.7. Consensus does not mean correct. With a powder like HP38 the difference between 3.7 and 4.0 is not a big deal so it is acceptable, but not a practice that should be used with other powders. Stay within the powder or manual values.

Other data listed is from older manuals and different tests. Even though it is the same powder, all the variables can change. Different lot of powder, different test conditions, better testing equipment etc.

Published data by the powder companies is proven safe so if you stay within that data you are good to go. A slight change in bullet type and seating depth can make a big difference in pressure.

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Still Running Against the Wind

I loaded a bunch of .38x158 with 4.6 gr W231 back before Hodgdon got the Winchester distributorship and rationalized the brands.
I think my present lot of HP38 is a bit hotter and 4.3 gr is about factory equivalent.

And if you are loading hollowpoints, don't you want full power?

Speer thinks 4.4 is ok at standard pressure, no +P shown for their swaged bullets.
Lyman has a wide range of loads in that weight range, depending on seating depth and bearing surface.

My go to load in .38spl with 158gr lswc is 4.2gr of W-231, this shoots very well in my S&W m 36 and m 10-5 the shells extract easily. I have loaded 4.4gr of 231 for the m 10 and it shoots very well.
My other favorite load with this bullet is 6.0gr of AA#5.

My favorite .38 Special load is 4.0gr W231 under a 158gr LSWC bullet. When I'm loading 158gr LSWC/HP ammo I switch over to HS-6 to increase the velocity so the HP bullet will expand more reliably.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

I use 4.0 grains. Nice plinking load in the k frames..not as much in lightweight j frame..try WST instead of 231. it burns a little cleaner with lead bullets

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The American dream is alive

Well, live and learn. I started reloading last year. I read the Hogdon HP-38/Win 231 specs and thought the 3.1 to 3.7 listing for the 158gr LSWC actually meant that 3.7 hit the (non +P for older Smiths) pressure limit. I load gobs of this stuff with 3.4gr of either the HP-38 or W-231 and think its just fine for putting neat holes in paper. I load some at 3.2 gr when I'm teaching new shooters with the Model 10 or 64. I have yet to jam one in the barrel.

Edit: I don't have a chrono so I don't know the velocity - just the fps range in the manual. But I do know that these rounds hit POA=POI as far as I can see the bullseye (maybe 75' on a good day).

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But then, what do I know?

i started off .38spl loads with 3.3 grains of bullseye and a heavy metal 158 grain lrn, then bumped up to 3.8 grains. saw no difference in 15-25yd accuracy off a bench rest. 3.3 grains of be is just fine for me, but be is a dirty flake bugger, so ....

i'm now testing w231 spherical and i've seen 158 grain bullet start loads of between 3.1 and 3.6 grains and will stay with a start load of 3.3 grains, see how it goes.

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I'll shoot my eye out!

I have loaded 38spl 158 gr cast SWC loads with 231 in charges from
3.8 grs to 5.4 grs. 5.4 grs is the max charge with 158 gr JHPs listed
as +P in Speer # 11. Pressure is listed as being within industry standards for +P , 22,400 cup. Velocity with a cast bullet is around
1025 fps in my 4" barrel S&W. This is well above the velocity obtained
from typical factory 158 gr +P LHPs. Data for 231 varies considerably
between different manuals and frankly some of the data in Hodgdon's
manuals is subject to question. It is obvious that some data listed as
maximum with swaged lead bullets is not at max std pressure but is
max velocity without significant leading. This is common practice from
many sources, not just Hodgdon. My Lyman Pistol manual says +P
with 231 and their 158 gr plain base cast bullet starts at 5.2 grs. I
don't see the logic in choosing 158 gr swaged LHP bullets for a general
purpose-plinking load when cast SWCs are avaliable in bulk at good
prices. Anyway 4.0 to 4.8 grs = 800 fps to 940 fps in a 4" barrel with
cast bullets should meet most needs and within standard pressure
limits to boot.

I have used 4.0 grains 231 behind many cast & swaged 158 grain lead bullets for many years. Not a screamer, but always accurate.

My standard range 158gr LSWC load is 4.0gr W231. It's not a super hot load and I have no idea why the Hodgdon load data lists a Max of 3.7gr! Hodgdon reports a pressure of only 14,600 CUP but the SAAMI limits are 17,000 PSI. That leaves a lot of room on top to safely increase the charge weight. The load i use wasn't near the Max years ago, it was just over the middle and it feels like it too...

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

My standard target load is 4.0 grains W231, a pleasant and accrate load in my model 15, tolerable in my 642. If I want to step it up I go to 5.0 grains under a 158 SWC. the 5.0 load clocks at 950 FPS +/- out of a 4" barrel.

I have a Bonanza Bullseye powder unit that uses fixed rotors. The 3.5 rotor throws 4.2 grains of W231. This is my standard load of 160 grain bullets. This load is accurate and not too hot to use. I get many reloads out of 38 brass using this charge. I have been using this load for years with no problems and it is very accurate in most revolvers. I cast my own 38 bullets using wheel weights. I get no leading with this load. If you are using swaged bullets, I would suggest using 3.5 grains of W231. This load usually causes no leading and is accurate in most guns.

I have been using the same 1200 pieces of Remington .38 Special brass for just about 7 years now and I have yet to have 1 piece fail with a similar load.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

3.9 gr of W231 ahead of a Rem 1.5 primer gives me 760 fps avg out of a 4inch-barrelled Model 64. This is with the RCBS 38-150-KT cast bullet which with my softer alloy runs right close to the 158gr bullet weight you are asking about. Keep in mind this is a lead bullet, can't tell if that is what you are asking about.
Hope this helps.

Tweek it for point of aim and group size , for your particular pistol. usually 4'ish grains in 38 special cases 158 gr swc and cci spp. 4 - 4.5 gr. W- 231 in 4" S&W 19.... works for me. You can boost it up a little for more power downrange. Awesome load!, for small game , target or plinking.

I've loaded many thousands of 45acp & a fair amount of 9mm using W231, so that's what I used when I recently started loading 38 special. (besides, that was the only handgun powder I had on hand). First load was 4.5 W231 behind a 148 gr hardcast DEWC, which shot pretty good. When I shot them up I bought a box of Speer 158 gr swaged lead SWC-HP but stuck with the same 4.5 gr charge. My old Speer manual #10 sez 4.4 gr is good for 878 fps out of a 6" barrel, so I figure that 4.5 load is good for somewhere between 800-850 (probably closer to 800) out of my 2" j-frames. It shoots well, fairly clean, and hits as close to point of aim as I do.
I don't wanna mess with different powders, charge weights, bullets, etc. (been there, done that), so I want one load for everything ( plinking, practice, self-defense, and midnight new year's eve shots into the air) and this non +P version of the "FBI load" is it for 38 special.

Please elaborate.

W231 is the only handgun powder I buy in bulk. I always have 2X 4lb jugs on the shelf. (4lbs of W231 is the same size jug as 8 lbs of H4895)

I load all my handgun calibers with W231 most times. I do experiment with other powders for specialized loads but always come back to W231. (.38 Special, .38 S&W, 9mm, .45 Auto, .45 Colt and sometimes magnum calibers too)

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

"Generally" speaking slower powders will preform better (more FPS) out of a short barrel gun.

As Arch stated HP38/W 231 is my go to powder also.

For those that want to really hot rod the 38 special, check any manual for +P loads and even those are "mild" as they have to be within specs and liability.

I am not a believer myself. I just carry a 9mm

Duplicating Buffalo Bore FBI Load

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Still Running Against the Wind

Since you want the load for SWC-HP's then I'd think you aren't using the load for plinking, but self defense.
I'm trying Rimrock's gas checked LSWC-HP, and using W231, Bullseye and AA#2 to work up a load for each both in standard and +P loads. Since SAMMI _+P is 20,000 psi and most +P loads listed are in the 17,000 psi range you have some room to work up your load. I'll be using a chrono to work my loads up with and feel what ever can get me around 850 fps with a snub will work ok with the LSWC-HP's of 5 Brinell hardness.
Follow what even you can find close to your components and start working up your load. You should be safe to start @ 4.0 grains as that is what allot are shooting with no problem and work from there.

Using Rimrock LSWC's with 4.0 gr of W231 I'm averaging 700fps out of my Smith m64 2" and @ 4.9 gr, I average 880 fps. If I'm going to just punch holes with the LSWC, I'll use 4' ish gr.

That extrapolates out to about 800 fps using 4.5 grains. I wouldn't mind a bit more velocity but am satisfied with that- esp since my Little Dandy #7 rotor throws a perfect 4.5 gr charge.

3 to 3.1 grains WW231 is the load I shoot in my Model 52's.

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Glenn Tracey aka Maxxus

I like 4.5g W231 under a Lyman 358156. I shoot it in J frames through N frames.

Looking at all the data I have, some going back to the 50's and comparing it to today's, IMO this is more or less the standard 38Spl round of old.

I like to plink with what I would use in the most extreme of circumstances. I don't own softball loads for any firearm.

Practice with what you'd use.

That said, they aren't stout, in fact they are downright civilized.

I think what someone said was right - the Hodgdon website loads appear to have been reduced below other load manuals, I assume for perceived liability reasons.

If it's a Speer bullet, it's probably a good idea to use a current Speer manual, not one several editions ago, since powder formulas can change.

This is a very accurate and informative post right here. I've loaded a few hundred pounds of W231 (SMP231 is the label for manufacturers) personally and professionally, and what you see posted above matches my experience. My only addition to that post is that I've found 231 to ocassionally have wide swings in burn rate, which MAY be partially a factor for the variances observed in load data from different sources.

My recommendations are:
4.0grs & 158gr LSWC/LRN = Std. Pressure Target/Service load
4.4grs & 158gr LSWC/LRN = Max Std. to very low +P load

I have loaded up to 5.6grs with a long-loaded Lyman #358156 (in 38 brass, but only for use in a 357 Magnum revolver!), but the results were less than satisfactory. I do not recommend exceeding the two loads above, and I think they give the best results.

Lots of books and manuals out there with loading data with this powder but I went straight to the source...........

Winchester data with the 158 gr LSWC 231 with 4.7 grs
list 860 fps with 17,100 psi of pressure...... for a 38 +P load.

In my 6" 686 357 mag with a f100 primer, this data produces 890fps.

Same load in my mod49 snub nose produced .......715 fps.

Same here, loaded and shot thousands of them.
Fun and accurate plinking load, nothing punishing to the gun or shooter, even in the J-Frames, can shoot them all day long.
However, they are a bit dirty, but not nearly as bad as Red Dot or Clays.
I also like to wipe down the gun with a soft rag after every two cylinders full anyway.
This load is also nice in my lever action carbines, recoil feels like a .22, good for fast action shooting and leading isn't a big problem.

I load 158gr LSWCs with 3.2 to 3.8 gr of WIN231 by the hundreds (thousands per year). Normal is 3.4 or 3.5 gr of Win231 as well.

Hits POA with any of my S&Ws. So I second the motion; why waste powder to put holes in paper?

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But then, what do I know?

I load 158gr. Berry's plated conical nose, flat point over 4.3 gr. HP-38 or W-231 (same powder) and am always pleased with the accuracy, good power, and no leading. My go-to load in the .s8 Special every time.

I load a lot of 231, in most pistol calibers. While I have loaded a fair amount of 4.3 gr. behind a 158 SWC Cast bullet, my favorite is 4.7 gr. behind a cast SWC or 4.9 behind a 158 RN. The Old Lyman cast bullet handbook lists these loads as max "standard velocity", not +P. The Velocity of the RN load is 906 fps listed in the book and confirmed by my chronograph. The accuracy is great, I have shot some groups as small as 1.5" at 25 yds, But I am not always that consistent.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

I have loaded 100's if not 1000's 158 SWC .38 SPl rounds with 4.3 Gr W-231.
Nicely accurate & pretty standard-level , not that hot, in my experience.
You want to go hotter, say +P-ish, try, as I did, 5.3 Gr W-231.
Although that load worked for me, in my S&W 586 and S&W 28, please approach with due caution : my guns are not your guns, how is the phrase?
"Your mileage may vary ?" .

Hi. i know this is an old thread. SOme great info here thank you everyone. As vm177 stated above Hodgdon lists w231 range at 3.1--3.7 for 158 gr cast lswc. I know these have been toned down for reasons of liability and tolerances are much higher. I am using the 3.6 load for my model 36 3',model 37 1 7/8' and model 14 6'. THe 3.6 suits the above models just fine.The problem is Hodgdon does not list for +P load for cast, which i would like to shoot out of my Model 686 4'. If possible can someone share load data for +P on the 158 gr cast RNFP BB BHN 12 using w231. Minumum loads to maximum and pressure ranges if possible. .Maybe it would be found under .357 data. please share. SAAMI says .357 can take up to 35,000. i am looking for accuracy at a greater distance.Say 25-50 yards. Thanks
Gl and have fun
Dave

Handgun data c/o Winchester........

357 Magnum
158 gr. Lead 231 6.7 1275 fps 42,500 cup ( N frame )

todays pressures are down to 35,000 psi due to the lighter frame revolvers, now on the market,to prevent frame damage.
w231 is a better medium velosity powder and for lead +P loads you might try 7.5grs of Unique, 9.0grs of HS6 or 13grs of 2400 for a 95% load.
Speer states that its 158 swchp should be kept at or below 1,000 fps to prevent leading the barrel, so it depends on what you really want or need with lead bullets. You may end up with 38 spl. velositys to keep the leading down.

My recommendation is that as you are a reloader, brew up and test a number of loads to find out what shoots best for you, in your gun. If you want to use 231, fine. If you want to use something else like Bullseye or Unique or Red Dot, that's fine also. Load up a dozen cartridges with a manual's starting load for that powder. Then another dozen with a powder charge increased by 0.2 grains and the same bullet, then move up in 0.2 grain increments until you get to a maximum handbook load. Shoot them all at 25 yards from a steady rest such as sandbags - but don't allow your gun to touch the sandbags. You will quickly find what load groups best. If you think you can do better, follow the same procedure but with another powder.