I shot a steel plate pin match with my model 64 3" and my loads are a Xtreme plated 158gr SWC with 4.0 of W231, the groups with this load are very tight out of the M64 but lack in knock down.. I also shot my 1911 and knocks the plates down with authority.. I was using 230gr ball in the 1911. So the lack of 72gr of bullet wight? Here is a photo of the pins.

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What you are seeing is the result of momentum. Yes, indeed, at similar velocities a 230 gr. bullet has substantially greater momentum than a 158 gr. bullet. Put another way, consider inertia -- the heavier bullet simply has greater inertia than the lighter, and greater inertia in the bullet better overcomes the inertia of the steel plate.

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Pisgah

So my question now is. How much heavier bullet can I shoot out of a 3" or 4" 38 spl? Or switch to one of my 357 mags, I really want to get proficient with a revolver.. I also have M29 and could try some 44 spl in it?

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Inertia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You either have to increase the velocity or the weight of the bullet or both.

The load you have for the 38 is a excellent target load for paper punching.

They have "pin buster bullets" but they are more for 357 Mag.

Like a 180 gr lead out of the 357.

I do not know the specifics of your steel plates, how heavy or whatever.?

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Still Running Against the Wind

Enter your info into a energy calculator and see how much energy your 45 is developing and find a 38/357 load that will give you the same or close number and load it.

I'll have to find out the info on the plates, they looked to be 3/8 to 1/2 thick and one foot tall..

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Have you tried a +P load in your Model 64? I used to use a 158 grain load in my M & P load with 3.8 grains 231 and it was a pipsqueak for power but was good on accuracy. Also does your SWC have more of meplat? You can try a harder bullet too, they might help make up for some of the lack of power downrange.
I am not sure if your steel plate match is timed but if you go to a .357 you might lose some time having to recover from the first shot. I would try a bit more power out of your gun before you try a different caliber, maybe a harder bullet too.

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I use a mouse fart load of 2.8 gr. Trail Boss behind a 158 gr. LRN bullet and it drops plates easilly - poppers take a hit towards the upper third. With 3.2 to 3.6 gr. Trail Boss that same bullet drops poppers with authority.
That 2.8 gr. load chronograped at 611 fps and the 3.2 and 3.6 gr. loads provided 688 and 720 fps.

Load up some 44 spcl and give them a try in the Model 29 . It's going to be a lot easier to develop a plate load because you are starting with a heavier bullet. I find hot and heavy 38/357 loads harder to control than a 240gr 44 cal at 800 to 850 fps shot out of a nice N frame. this should be just the thing to take them pesky plates out.

I enjoy shooting the large bore N frames, kind of a nostalgic thing to do with every one else shooting plastic wonder-nines.

gary

I have an old box of Winchester 200gr .38 spl Super Police. Maybe other companies made a heavy .38 spl load too. Is there any 200 -ish gr 38 bullets out there for reloading? They should hit hard.

P

There ya go. But you would need the velocity. Got a Chronograph? You could just guesstimate based on the load data if the test barrel is similar,

Energy Calculator

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Thanks, I'll try this..

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Standard "Police" load years ago for .38 Special was a 200 gr. RN bullet. So, 200 gr. in a 38 Special isn't unheard of. Try it...

I used 5 grains of Unique with a 158 in .38 Spl casings and it would be very reliable in taking over the plates on our plate racks....Might work for you as well.

The load is accurate, controllable and fun to shoot. Doesn't however have the muscle that my .45ACP's do in my 25-2 though. Even marginal hits go over with authority with that combination.
Randy

Randy

If you can get your 158g chunks of lead moving about 1050fps you should have about the same energy as the 230g 45. I can easily do this with lite loads in my 6" gun with 357 cases.

In my experience a 4.0grs of W231 with a 158gr lead bullet will only be about 700 fps from a 4" revolver and likely less than 700 fps from a 3" barrel.

Up your powder charge to at least 4.5grs to get factory equivalent standard velocity at around 800 fps + from a 4" revolver. Use 4.7grs give you a +P equivalent load to Winchester 158gr Super X. You will probably loose 25 to 50 fps with the shorter 3" barrel but it should give you enough slap to knock down those plates batter.

As others have noted your bullets are moving too slow. In my limited experience, a 158 gr bullet at 1000 fps will knock over steel plates at least as well as a 45 ACP. In fact, my "wimpy" 800 fps loads seem to do as well. Reaching 1000 fps with a 158 gr bullet is difficult in the 38 special but trivial in a 357 magnum. However a 38 +P can reach 800 fps even with a fast powder like Bullseye.

First use a stiff jacket bullet preferably w/ a flat nosed full metal jacket. Take a look at the various loading manuals and select two to three powders that demonstrate the highest velocity for the weight bullet you are using. If possible , find and use heavy for caliber bullets... 180 gr. are so. Work up loads to the highest velocity your revolver will safely produce. As to actually knocking over the steel plates, please do recognize that there is nothing standard about the way such plates are made or how their bases are made or how they stand. You may end up with loads that may or may not work on the plates found at your range. As mentioned earlier, a stiffly constructed jacket bullet will be helpful. I have shot a lot of steel plates behind a church member's work building. Big heavy hard bullets work better than big heavy soft bullets. More than likely a stiffly jacketed bullet will not disintegrate so quickly when it hits the plate allowing more time for it to work transferring energy to the plate which is what it takes to make the plate fall. JMHO. Sincerely. brucev.

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Thanks for the help everyone. I'm going to work up some loads with some 158gr FMJ flat points I have. My next match is in June, so this gives me some time.. I'm also going to work up some 44spl loads. I found shooting the match with a revolver a challenge and fun.. With a auto just fun, not much of a challenge.

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Penn has some 180, 200 and 230 grain bullets, the 230 being for either 38sp or 357 cases. You need moderate velocity and a big bullet to do what you want.

I believe your problem stems from using too light of a load. In my 627 with a 5" barrel, the Berry's 158 grain round nose over 4.2 grains of WW231, gives me a velocity of 700 fps which equates to a power factor of 110. 4.4 grains of WW231 gives me a power factor of 119, and my ICORE load of 4.6 grains of WW231 gives me a power factor of 128. Again these velocities are from a 5" barrel. Your 3" barrel will certainly provide even less velocity.

I recently shot a falling plate steel match where the match director advised that all steel would fall provided the shooter was using a minimum power factor of 135. (PF = bullet weight X velocity / 1000)

Your .44 will certainly provide better knockdown power using a much heavier weight bullet.

No matter which caliber you choose, I suggest that you chrono all your loads so you can determine the exact power factor for the load you are using. Once you determine what power factor will reliably knock down the plates, you can tailor your loads for any caliber to meet that power factor.

I agree a standard .38 Special will have a problem knocking over those heavy Steel plates and the .44 Special will do much better. Of course you can load the .38's with a heavier bullet or more velocity (or both) but that will be harder to control so going fast might be VERY challenging. (and fast is good in a competition lol) If the above statement a PF of 135 will fall the plates that same 158gr bullet at 900 fps will produce a PF of 142 and should do the job. Load up some 158gr LSWC bullets and send them over the Chrono until you get 900 fps. They will probably be in the +P range but just barely and they will be controllable.

If you're willing to buy another revolver a S&W M625 in .45 ACP will do a great job on those plates. You already have .45 ACP ammo for your 1911 and it's easy to load for and components are widely available. If not, I'm sure the .44 Special will serve you well too. A .44 Special with a 200gr bullet at only 750 fps will give you a PF of 150. A 230gr .45 Auto round at the same velocity will produce a PF of 172.5, not bad at all!

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SWCA #3437

Some good news! I just bought a 625 JM..

I guess I'll still finish working up my 38 spl loads for fun. I've been shooting 6.0gr of HS-6 that shot well in my M15, so I loaded some up last night. Also loaded 6.2, 6.4, 6.5, 6.6 of HS-6 with a 158gr FMJ flat point to test in my M64.

Again thanks everyone for the help. Hands down this is the best gun forum out there.

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Jerry Miculek used to shoot pins at the Second Chance Bowling Pin
Shoot with a long-barreled M27 and 230 grain bullets. I heard he loaded them in .38 cases.

I used round nose lead 230 grain .45 ACP loads going about 900 fps.
Also 210, 215 or 225 grain LSWCs in .41 Magnum. The .41s were going about 1,000 fps from my six-inch M57 and were much more impressive
on pins. The flat nose on the .41 bullets helped.