It's been almost 30 years since I have owned a K-frame but a recent buying spree corrected that sad situation. I am now considering how to feed a 4" Model 64 and some 3" Model 65's.

My older manuals list safe proven loads in K-frames up to 22, 000 psi and I have a bunch of powders like Unique, 4227 and 2400 for that data but I want to try something new.

I use Longshot for my heavy shotgun loads and looking at Hodgdons data I find some 125 & 158gr loads that give good velocities at low pressures, even their "+P" data that quits at 19,000psi.

HS6 also looks like a good powder for high 38 Special velocities.

So, who can share some experience with loading Longshot & HS6 in full power loads under 125 & 158 gr bullets, jacketed or cast?

Thanks in advance.

Anything with a 4" or shorter I use Unique & have no problems & it is very accurate.

I have never used the powders you mention but I have found that it
is easy to break 1000 fps in a 4" K frame with W231 and 158 gr cast
bullets. Looking at my older manuals I believe these loads are under
22,000 psi. I usually avoid jacketed bullets in the 38 spl.

SR4756 bar none..............

I've used HS6 in the past with both 125gr jacketed and 158gr lead bullets. It's the same powder as what used to be marketed as W-W 540. Data can be found in older manuals. Just start low and work your way up.

I no longer use it in the .38 special as my interests have changed, but I still use it to load +P .38 special level loads in .357 cases.

Try Power Pistol. I think you'll find it may be what you're seeking.

I worked up a load load of 7.8 grains of HS6 and Remington 125 gr. SJHP's in .38 Special brass. The load is the listed maximum on the Hodgdon website. Very accurate and clean burning load. I have shot it so far in a Ruger SP101 and a S&W M13. A buddy of mine let me try the load in his junker Taurus lightweight .38 Special; I don't know the model, but same size as J frame, and fired fine.

5.5 gr. unique and a 158 cast.

I like both HS-6 and Longshot for loading .38 Special +P loads. I do not like the results I get with Longshot when loading lead bullets but it's very good with jacketed bullets, especially 158gr bullets. I use HS-6 a lot and it will work well with both lead and jacketed bullets. It's my powder of choice for duplicating the FBI Load.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

I use AA#5 with 140-160gr cast bullets in a S&W mod 10, this powder works well for me at near max or +p loadings.

Its been a while since we had a thread on this

"The Load"...

Yes, "The Load", somehow I figured that would come up

I started the thread asking about Longshot and HS6 because those are the only powders I have that I have not used for handgin loading, and because I am trying to get the most out of a 4" Model 64 while having a .38 load that will go in my .357's.

The suggestions of Unique and AA5 are appeciated, and I have already worked with both with very good results. Power Pistol is looking more and more like something I need to try, so I will get a pound and play with it.

So, if you want to talk about The Load, or other heavy 38's, go right ahead. In fact, let me lay my cards on the table right away:

I subscribe to the belief that since the original .38 Special working pressures were set at 21-22000 cup I can expect any full size 38 Special chambered revolver in good condition to be perfectly safe at that level. I would even suggest that J-frames made before SAAMI dropped the pressures would be safe at these "standard" 38 pressures. Whether they would be fun to shoot is another story, but they will not blow up on you.

Manufacturer's published this data and shooters used it for years with no real problems other than wear on the guns. Guns are tools, tools wear out, get repaired or replaced, just the facts of life. "Unsafe" means something entirely different.

Were some loads found to exceed max pressures? Probably, and it was corrected, but that doesn't justify watering down a 22000cup standard to 16000psi, even allowing for the differences in pressure measuring methods.

I equate this to our cars of the 1970's, all of which were perfectly safe to drive at legally posted speed limits of 70 or more, and mostly safe at even higher speeds. Along comes Congress and the safety nannies to say that 55mph is now the "safe" speed and anything faster is flirting with disaster. But what changed?

The cars were the same, the roads were the same, and the drivers(for better or worse) were the same. Only some arbitrary standard changed. Now comes along a later (and wiser) Congress who decide that 70 mph speed limits are again safe. And cars are even better now than in 1970.

So I believe that guns that were made for 22000cup, and loads that were used in those guns for decades with no ill effects, are still a viable combination. Modern guns are even better made that even 30 years ago. My concern with modern guns is that they will be made to accomodate the new lower standard and may actually be less safe than older guns.

If I lay my M64 and M65's side by side the only differences are the length of barrel, the chamber cut in the cylinder and the caliber stamped on the barrel.

From what I know of modern "batch" maufacturing and what I have learned about S&W, I do not believe that some frames and cylinders are heat treated differently than others.

When the factory runs 5000 cylinders and 5000 frames, they know some will become 22's, some 38's and some will be 357's. It is easier to treat all of these the same up to the final manufacturing steps, and harder to keep differently treated parts separate, with the attendant liability if an inproperly treated part end up where it shouldn't. If someone more knowledgable than me knows differently, and for certain, that this is wrong please let me know.

So, there is my rant. Now that I have hijacked my own thread, feel free to throw in on this discussion.

Cerberus62

5.7 gr. of 800X & a cast 158 gr. SWC work for me..

Another vote for 4756. It is sitting on my bench right now for some 38super loads. It works great with 38/44's and 38 specials also. Just have to work up the load over a chrono!

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SWCA 1646

SR4756, work up loads in your revolver from current data towards the Speer #8 minimum for 38spl and a 158gr LSWC.

I have never gone over the minimum from that manual as it was quite substantial in and of itself.

Here is something else to consider. Vita Vohri(sp) powders list a 158gr LSWC load, and they say that ALL of their loads are within current pressure regulations for either CIP or SAAMI standards that leaves the barrel of their test gun @ over 1000fps. Now, I don't remember which powder nor the length of barrel but, it might just be something to check out.

FWIW

Skip,
VihtaVuori powders do generate high velocities but I think the data on their site conforms to CIP limits which usually exceed SAAMI limits. The pressures might be too much for older and weaker guns. Also, European data does not distinguish between standard and +P pressures, it's all one data.

__________________
Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

I doubt very much that, even though the modern standard has been "lowered," S&W, Ruger, etc. have reduced the strength of their pistols to meet the new standard.
By all means, if you want to experiment with loadings outside those in the manuals, do so. It's your gun, your hands, your life. But you should be aware that you are, in fact, experimenting and should be willing to take responsibility for your actions.
FWIW, if you want a .357, buy a .357.

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and what his trumpet saith

I've had very good luck with Bullseye in 38 special. I have a 2 inch Colt Detective Special and I've found the shorter the barrel the better Bullseye works relative to other powders.

I agree, that was my point exactly.

Where did I say that I was experimenting with loads outside of manuals?

I am not experimenting, I am referring to using published loads that were developed by professional ballisticians and tested in guns exactly like the one I plan to use them in.

Millions of these rounds have been fired in these guns and were considered safe until industry standards were lowered.

I have fired thousands of these myself over the last 30+ years and still have all my body parts.

I have a safe full of .357's. Right now there are 3 Model 65's, a Model 686, a Ruger Blackhawk and TC Contender. I don't need another .357.

I am seeking insight from handloaders experienced with the powders I asked about to get good performance from the gun as it was originally designed. I know how to get what I want, a 158gr bullet running 950-1000fps, I'm just asking what other powders will do the same thing better.

If you have such insight I would appreciate your sharing it, as I have appreciated the others who have been so helpful on this thread.