Cannelure brass in .38 special.

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TAKJR

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Gents:

I am starting back into reloading after years-and-years and I attempted to load some .38 special rounds with 158 grain lead Rim Rock bullets with once-fired brass from Winchester that was originally new 148 match wadcutter ammunition with the cannelure near the middle of the case. My dilema? When I went to seat the bullet, the case "crushed" at the cannelure, each and every time, even tough I backed off of the seating plug/cap each time a bit. Have you had a similar experience with cannelured brass in .38? I have new non-cannelure brass available, but I wanted to use this brass up first. I am a little pissed, but I will plan on (forever) using non-cannelured brass. I did bell the case properly. The bullet seated properly, but the case "crushed" anyway.

Any thoughts?

Thank you!

TAKJR
 
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Are you seating on one station and then crimping on the next?

Or are you seating and crimping all at once? If so, you are probably overdoing the crimp, then trying to seat the bullet further. Common problem with seating and crimping in one operation. Cure: Less crimp.
Permanent cure: Seat and crimp in two separate stations.

Added: Yes, I had the same issue years ago with cannelure brass and a 3-die set in a Lee turret. Adjusted for less crimp so the downward pressure of crimping and final seating together would not buckle the cannelure cases.
Currently I load .38 on a Dillon, which has separate seat and crimp stations, and have not buckled any cases on it, cannelure or otherwise.
 
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Seat/crimp same time. I bought an RCBS carbide set that has only three dies. You both hit the nail on the head.

Thanks.

Ted
 
I seat and crimp at the same time with RCBS dies with no problem, and have for years. I suspect your bullet is oversize or the sizing die is under size?
Dick
 
I'm wondering if the length of the bullet itself is a bit long and contacting the case cannelure before the correct o.a.l. is reached.

If all other things have been considered and taken account for, it's not the crimp at the top. The OP stated it's crushing at the case cannelure, not the bullet's cannelure.
 
To all...and Dirty Gary:

It has been years since I have reloaded and never before have I experienced this.....even way back when. This is the first time however, that I have used these types of cases. I always used straight-walled brass in the past and I never had a problem, but the case walls did cant and crush at the cannelure. I just wondered if other reloaders here have had the same issue? These cases were factory Winchester 148 wadcutter ammunition that I had a few boxes of and shot (and saved). I will shy away from them now (even if I see some at the range) and I will review my reloading procedures more carefully.

Another side note....I found the RCBS universal hand priming too to not work as advertised....let's put it at that.

Some may think I am a bad reloader.....perhaps due to my being away for so long I have missed a beat or two, but overall, I have not lost everything I learned...yet.

Thank you all again!

TAKJR
 
It almost certainly is a crimp/seating adjustment problem. The cannelure provides a location for the case to buckle but it isn't the cause. Seating and crimping in one operation is NOT hard to achieve.....but getting things adjusted to do so requires some attention to detail. Cannelured brass is slightly less desirable than uncannelured for some minor reasons but it is not an actual problem.
 
Eureka!

The fact that they were factory 148 gr Win. can. cases explains the problem. They were produced using a smaller(weight wise) bullet. When you try to put a heavier bullet in, it's too physically big in some dimension.

Try some straight walled cases with the same bullet and I'll bet your problems go away.

Hobie
 
Hobie1 said:
I'm wondering if the length of the bullet itself is a bit long and contacting the case cannelure before the correct o.a.l. is reached.

If all other things have been considered and taken account for, it's not the crimp at the top. The OP stated it's crushing at the case cannelure, not the bullet's cannelure.
Click to expand...
I can't agree because the brass was originally loaded with a Wadcutter bullet which is seated much deeper than any 158gr SWC or LRN bullet made.

Hobie1 said:
Eureka!

The fact that they were factory 148 gr Win. can. cases explains the problem. They were produced using a smaller(weight wise) bullet. When you try to put a heavier bullet in, it's too physically big in some dimension.

Try some straight walled cases with the same bullet and I'll bet your problems go away.

Hobie
Click to expand...
I'm not picking on you but i have to disagree again. 148gr and 158gr bullets are not that much apart weight wise and both are the same diameter. The diameter is what would stretch the brass, not the additional 10gr or weight.

Like said above, "the cannelure provides a location for the case to buckle but it isn't the cause." It's like etching glass when you want to cut it and then giving it a tap. The glass will break at the etching before anywhere else. (usually lol)
 
No problem, but then what is causing the buckling?

I bought some cast .45 semi-wadcutters from a manufacturer years ago and they just didn't load right although I'd bought thousands from the same company with no issues before. Turns out they hadn't been sized correctly at the factory. The company made a full refund + some extras for the trouble.

Things happen.

Hobie
 
BTW, it would be of some help if TAKJR could give a set of measurements of the Rim Rock bullets as far as diameter and length to the point of crimp from the base. Also, what's the length of the distance of the cannelure to case rim?

Got to go to work now, will check back later.
 
As far as measurments goes, I don't have a caliper so all I can now say (after reading the pamphlet that comes with the dies) that I did not adjust the single seat/crimp die properly. Still, I will shy away from brass with cannelure and I won't run on past practice (from years ago).

I have a little brushing up to do as far as die adjustment is concerned.

Thanks again to all.

TAKJR
 
Winchester wadcutter brass has two cannelures, the main one, just below the bullet base in the original loading, and another smaller one below it. Now, the bad thing about cannelures is that they blow out a bit upon firing, making the case a little longer. The cases seem to "grow" at inconsistent rates, so some cases are a bit longer than others. Inconsistent case lengths raise hell with crimps, and could be the cause of the buckling the OP is experiencing. I purely hate cannelured brass for this reason and segregate it whenever I encounter it. It could take 2-3 firings before the cannelure is sufficiently blow out to no longer be an issue. At that point, the brass should be trimmed to a consistent length.
 
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TAKJR said:
As far as measurments goes, I don't have a caliper so all I can now say (after reading the pamphlet that comes with the dies) that I did not adjust the single seat/crimp die properly. Still, I will shy away from brass with cannelure and I won't run on past practice (from years ago).

I have a little brushing up to do as far as die adjustment is concerned.

Thanks again to all.

TAKJR
Click to expand...

If you don't have a caliper, how in the world do you measure O.A.L?

You have to have the essential measurement tools when re-loading.

I recuse myself from this thread, no ill feelings at all.

Hobie
 
Hobie1

With no caliber, I use a factory .38 158 round for overall measurement.

Again, I am just getting back into reloading and calipers will come....

TAKJR
 
From an engineering viewpoint, a cannalure in the case will be a weak point, and collapse if excessive force is used in seating the bullet. A significant number of straight-walled cases will also collapse under excessive force. For this reason, I seat and crimp in separate operations. This procedure has eliminated case damage, and is very tolerant of variations in case length.

If you seat and crimp in one operation, the bullet is forced to travel up to 1/16" once engaged by the lip of the case. This will engrave and shave a lead bullet, usually without a lot of force. A jacketed bullet is a different matter, unless the crimp fits exactly into a cannalure on the bullet itself. Even then, I would get 1-2 cases/100 to buckle.

With a single stage press, I set the die for crimping with the seating post backed out. When seating, I put a 1/10" washer under the lock nut, and set the seating depth using a dummy round. It only takes a few seconds for "government" work, and a minute or so if you need fine adjustments. My Dillon 550b always uses separate seating and crimping dies - problem resolved. Done this way, the force exerted on the case is very low - the weight of the arm is nearly enough to do the job.

I do this with pistol bullets too, for consistency. A taper crimp done properly does not usually engrave the bullet, even if it is jacketed with no cannalure. Still, much more force is needed if the bullet is forced through the crimp in a single operation. I got tired of reloading for two hours for half an hour of shooting (.45 ACP), so I bought the Dillon. In that sense, the crimping issue is moot. The only time a case is damaged is when I'm sloppy inserting it into the base, or a bullet tips before being seated - exceedingly rare once you get the feel for it.
 
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You might also consider a Redding crimp die (Lee makes them, also). It solved an similiar problem I was having with 44 Special reloads. You will be adding another step, but you won't have to fool with seating die adjustments.

PS With cannelures or not --- this is a common problem.
 
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