38 SPL with Bullseye and Unique - how low can you go?

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tacotime

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Looks like my little 2 inch Mod. 36 doesn't care for 158gr LSWCHP loads at the upper end of the standard load range.

But Bullseye 2.8 and 3.0 were promising. The books seem to start Bullseye at 3.0. I saw some posts using 2.5. What is the minimum for Bullseye in .38 with 158gr?

Likewise, it has not shot well with 4.5 Unique. Going down to 4.0 or below. Is there a floor with Unique also?

I guess in other words - is there a Kaboom risk hiding there somewhere in the low loads for these powders in .38?

Thanks.
 
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In my experience very small powder charges can result in ignition problems. The force of the primer can easily be sufficient to send the bullet into the barrel, even though the powder charge may not ignite.

Bullseye can present this problem in the .38 Special case, a small amount of a very dense powder taking up only a small portion of the internal volume of the case.

If you continue with these experiments I would suggest that you stick with a slow and deliberate firing sequence. Any rounds that do not provide the expected muzzle report and recoil should result in keeping the muzzle pointing downrange for a minute or two, in case of a delayed ignition. Then the weapon should be examined to make sure that a bullet has not been stuck in the bore before continuing to fire the weapon.

In a rapid fire sequence a squib load might lodge a bullet in the barrel, then be followed by proper discharge of the next round launching a bullet into the obstructed bore, with potentially dangerous results.

Best regards.
 
I'm shooting 148 dewc and 2.7 of bullseye is THE std load. Not sure how adding 10gr of bullet affects what powder load you should move to.
I had a squib and never felt any difference - left the bullet in the cylinder. I was surprised as I thought there would have been noticeably less recoil or something. There wasn't.

I chrono'd my shots last night and had an avg of 639.3 FPS. Didn't do any accuracy testing. (had the whole family there...too much going on).
Sd was 16.11 so they should be more accurate than me.

Some guys load as low as 450fps and some closer to 900.
 
The minimum is 0. I wouldn't screw around with light loads of slow burning powders though. You'll find inconsistent ignitions and partially burned charges at times with faster powders. I've loaded some pretty weak loads for cowboy matches. Might want to try some trail boss high bulk powder, it burns more consistent with really light loads and was developed for cowboy shooters who use them. Keep in mind you have to spin the bullets to keep them stabilized too. Gets boring pretty quick.
 
I guess in other words - is there a Kaboom risk hiding there somewhere in the low loads for these powders in .38?
Click to expand...
No. As far as I can recall, kabooms have only been recorded in using certain slow rifle powders in low density loads.

Firing a squib followed by a full pressure load can do considerable damage. However, one of the gun TV channels had an experiment several years ago where they loaded progressively lower lower loads of Bullseye until they had six bullets stuck in the barrel. There was no damage to the gun due to the low pressures involved, but they are a pain to get out, so you still want to keep an eye on it.

Bullseye was also my powder of choice for "squib" rifle loads until I started adapting the cases to take shotshell primers. Never had a problem.
 
In the NRA "Handloading" book, copyright date 1981, there is an article on minimum loads for handguns. Page 116.

Their extensive testing resulted in a minimum load, for a nominal 2" Chief's Special, .38 Special, 146 gr. full wadcutter:

0.75 grs Bullseye Muzzle Velocity 195 fps Energy 12.3 ft. lbs.

In a 6" barrel K-38, the bullet stuck short of the muzzle 1 1/4" or more.

They found a minimum load for the 6" gun:

1.25 grs. Bullseye Muzzle velocity 272 fps

I certainly do NOT recommend trying this, but it is an interesting experiment, in how low you can go.

I doubt Unique would be this flexible.
 
Jellybean said:
No. As far as I can recall, kabooms have only been recorded in using certain slow rifle powders in low density loads.

Firing a squib followed by a full pressure load can do considerable damage. However, one of the gun TV channels had an experiment several years ago where they loaded progressively lower lower loads of Bullseye until they had six bullets stuck in the barrel. There was no damage to the gun due to the low pressures involved, but they are a pain to get out, so you still want to keep an eye on it.

Bullseye was also my powder of choice for "squib" rifle loads until I started adapting the cases to take shotshell primers. Never had a problem.
Click to expand...

Have done the low pressure squibs myself, yep, no damage. Don't get much leading with those low velocities either.
 
I can't think of anything positive about experimenting with minimal loads but I can think of some downsides, so why take a chance? I'd stick to the manuals. When I was using BE, with 158 gr lead, I found 3.2 gr worked very well. One advantage of loading for the "middle of the road" is that if you miss a tenth of a grain or two it's no big deal. If you're at the absolute minimum it could mean trouble.
 
LoboGunLeather said:
If you continue with these experiments I would suggest that you stick with a slow and deliberate firing sequence. Any rounds that do not provide the expected muzzle report and recoil should result in keeping the muzzle pointing downrange for a minute or two, in case of a delayed ignition.


Dang Lobo, thanks for that!! When I read that - I asked myself if I would have waited a minute or two? Honestly, no! Its good to get reminders like this often. I shoot light trigger target guns and had one go off as I picked it back up after looking through a spotter scope. Scared the heck out of me! I was lucky that I always keep the business end pointing downrange.
Click to expand...
 
Some reloading manuals list specific loads for S&W M52. I would suggest that those are the lowest practical published loads you will find. A 158 gr SWC substituted for a 148 gr HBWC will not cause a high pressure load in this powder charge range.

My wife really likes "her" Bullseye loads in her snub nose revolvers.
 
Thanks. Perhaps I didn't detail the question enough. I was really wondering if anyone had concerns about Bullseye below the manual starting levels, say around 2.5 grains or so, and not trying to load it down really much further. Just looking for a good accurate load on the lower end of normal, to try and get this old well-worn Mod. 36 to tighten up the groups. I'm going to get fair with the 2 inch J frame out to 25 to 50 yards - that's my personal challenge.

Interesting info about the low load testing that was done.
 
I agree 2.7 grains of bullseye with a 148 grain waddcutter is low level standard load for some who shoot bullseye competition.
 
I have loaded the 158 gr. SWCHP at 3.8 grains of Unique for a light J frame load. I used it as a training load for a fairly new shooter. It shot fine for the purpose.
 
Back in the 1970's I shot competitive combat and used a Star Automatic loading press. I purchased it from the Police Department where I worked. We (I) used the 148 grain wad cutter lead bullet and 2.5 grains of BE and 2.7 grains of BE in for the HB Swaged lead bullet. Worked great and very accurate. Loaded many, many thousands. Also used 2.7-3.0 BE with the 158 grain SWC and they shot great also.
 
As stated, for many decades, the standard paper punching load in .38 Special is 2.7 grains of Bullseye and a 148 grain lead wadcutter bullet. One thing to always be careful of is not throwing a double charge, but I doubt it would do any real damage in a recent revolver. I always charge all cases in a 50 round loading block and check each case using a small flashlight or in sunlight to be sure there are no double charges or missed cases before loading.

I have never had a double charge, but I have had a very few loads with no powder. That's why I always carry a short rod in case I need to drive a bullet out of the bore at the range.

I can't think of a reason to go lower than 2.7 grains. Using a semiwadcutter or round nose bullet introduces a new variable, as the powder space in the case would be much greater than with the full wadcutter, and the propellant burning behavior would be different.

By the way, hangfires are very uncommon with newer ammo. I have had those only when firing very old ammunition, and they are of the click-bang variety, with only a fraction of a second delay. No need to wait a minute, a few seconds is enough. I recently fired some (probably) 1930s manufacture .32-20 ammunition, and every single round was click-bang. Very disturbing to your aiming.
 
Last edited:
tacotime said:
Thanks. Perhaps I didn't detail the question enough. I was really wondering if anyone had concerns about Bullseye below the manual starting levels, say around 2.5 grains or so, and not trying to load it down really much further. Just looking for a good accurate load on the lower end of normal, to try and get this old well-worn Mod. 36 to tighten up the groups. I'm going to get fair with the 2 inch J frame out to 25 to 50 yards - that's my personal challenge.

Interesting info about the low load testing that was done.
Click to expand...

Now that makes a lot of difference! No it doesn't, I was just kidding.

I have a ton of loading data here and if it would make you feel better I'm sure I could look around and find a source that used 2.5 grains as a starting point. The fact is that the manuals don't always base their starting loads on what is the absolute bottom of safety. The exact components makes a difference and to get the best accuracy from a low veocity load a hollow base wad cutter would probably be a good choice, since that's what they were made for.
 
No, there's enough reports and data around 2.5 that I have no concern... thanks anyway though.

Just having a small issue finding some HBWC locally, but I'll pick up some Berry's on the next run to Cabellas.

I should probably finish my initial testing using all the same bullets here anyway, which are the Speer bulk 158 LSWCHP. I suppose these are not the best for testing, but that's what I have at the moment.
 
"I'll pick up some Berry's"

Do be careful, a low end load with a lubricated lead bullet can be hazardous with a plated bullet. The coefficient of friction between copper and steel is higher than greasy lead and you would be at greater risk of sticking a bullet in the barrel.
 
the lowest I ever went with any caliber was 350 FPS in a 44 magnum for a specific purpose requiring only one round to cool the jets of a blowhard.
aside from getting a similar point across. don't do it, and if you do, load one beyond the development string as risk of a squib is quite high.
 
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