460 primer flattening

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kalex0353

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Okay folks attached is a before and after.
The load was 45.0 grains of H110, Winchester LRM, Hornady 240 grain XTP. This is the Hodgon published starting load. I hand measure every 10 or so powder dispenses, using calibration weights to verify the initial scale setup. I'm quite confident my measurements are accurate.
There was no problem with extraction.

This is my first batch of 460 loads and to me this appears to be excessive flattening. Can someone comment on these?
 

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  • 460Primers.JPG
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Can not really see the pictures of the primers??

I think Skip will find this interesting.

The start load per HODGDON is 45.0 gr and the MAX is 48.5 gr.

This appears to be more than 3%?????;)

Kalex this has nothing to do with your post, sorry, just found it interesting.
 
I can't really see the primers in the pic either, but will tell you that extraction is a much better sign of excess pressure in the .460 than flattened primers. If the cases extracted easily as you said, you're probably fine. Also, Hodgdon's website loading data for the .460 is a bit hot, especially if you have tight throats like I do. I shoot 45gr of H110/W296 under the 240 XTP-Mag quite a bit, it's very accurate in my X-Frame and I see no reason to push it any harder. It is in the middle of charge rates according to the Hornady and Lyman manuals. If you move up to the 300 gr XTP-MAGs and use the Hodgdon data, you'll find the starting load about right also.
 
Thanks for the input...I did note that these were rather hot loads when I fired them and it made me go back and check all my work. When I loaded these (against all best practices) I only used the Hodgdon data. Subsequently, I have gotten the Hornady data and done a comparison. Not only does Hornady start with less charge they also detail WLR rather than LRM primers. I believe I'm going to drop back a bit with less powder (probably 44gr of H110) and large rifle primers. As you say that's mid range in the Hornady data. Again.... Thanks to all.....
 
You will find that any of Hodgdons data for any Magnum load will use a Mag primer. Even say for the 357 Mag using HP 38. But they also recommend a Mag Primer for H110.W296.

The Hornady manual has a range of 41.0 up to 49.5 so you are still within either load data.

Can you take a close up macro picture of the primers? Some flattening is not really a good measure of a problem.

You may be just fine as you say extraction was fine. As long as the bullet was crimped at the cannelure and not seated deep I do not see a problem based on what you wrote.
 
Yes, much better picture.
They appear somewhat "flattened" to me, BUT, it may just be Winchester which are a tad softer than say CCI. I only go as high as 44 Mag so those may be normal for the 460. They are not cratered or bulging so again it may be normal for the 460 which is a screaming round.:)

Someone with more experience with high pressure rounds will chime in,
 
kalex0353 said:
Okay folks attached is a before and after.
The load was 45.0 grains of H110, Winchester LRM, Hornady 240 grain XTP. This is the Hodgon published starting load. I hand measure every 10 or so powder dispenses, using calibration weights to verify the initial scale setup. I'm quite confident my measurements are accurate.
There was no problem with extraction.

This is my first batch of 460 loads and to me this appears to be excessive flattening. Can someone comment on these?
Click to expand...

Primer flattening in revolvers is an extremely poor and inaccurate way to guage pressure. When you fire the primer backs out slightly due to the clearance in the base of the brass and recoil sheild needed to keep the revolver from tying up due to dragging brass. After the split second of the primer backing out the rest of the brass slams into the recoil shield and reseats the primer. This action flattens the primers on safe loads as well. This I'd also the reason if you shoot wax or rubber bullets without opening uo the flash holes the primers backing out will tie up the gun cause the case isn't slamming against the recoil shield reseating the primer. Hope that made sense as I'm typing on a phone right now. You should be concerned more so with cratering and sticky extraction.
 
Kalex0353 (what is that MOS anyway?)

What primer are you using? This is VERY important. How deep did you go to read the "recipe"?
 
kalex0353 said:
Thanks for the input...I did note that these were rather hot loads when I fired them and it made me go back and check all my work. When I loaded these (against all best practices) I only used the Hodgdon data. Subsequently, I have gotten the Hornady data and done a comparison. Not only does Hornady start with less charge they also detail WLR rather than LRM primers. I believe I'm going to drop back a bit with less powder (probably 44gr of H110) and large rifle primers. As you say that's mid range in the Hornady data. Again.... Thanks to all.....
Click to expand...

I hope you do not stick a bullet doing this. Hodgdon KNOWS their powder and how it works better than anyone. THE problem is that you got scared because you did not follow their recipe. When they call for a LRM, why would you substitute a LP? Or a LR or anything other than what they recommend? Do you (and that is not aimed at anyone in particular) know better than they do about how their powder reacts to the brisance of any primer? I personally think that is foolish, to be honest.

What you need to do is load them to the recipe and see what you get. Use the minimum for H110/W296 (which I never do, I always go to the maximum load for THAT powder), a large rifle magnum primer and go from there.

What is the maximum pressure of the 460S&W Mag? 60,000psi or so? That puts it in the same category, pressure wise as a 300WSM! And a LP primer is designed for what kind of pressure, usually? Well, a Winchester LP is good for a magnum load, for a normal magnum, which is around 40,000psi or so!

Hodgdon has been at this a long time. Personally, I trust them with 99% of their stuff, Titegroup being the ONLY issue I have with them, and you cannot get enough H110/W296 in that case to make a test load for that revolver, no way, shape nor form. Load the case with a triple charge of uberfast pistol powder and it is a different story altogether.

Kalex, you do what you want, you are obviously full grown and know that doing things brings repercussions or benefits. I caution you about reducing that load of H110/W296 as you have said that you will do. But, you will have to make your own decisions and, reap the benefits or pay the piper....

Be safe, have fun.....

And, Rule, personally, if someone doesn't follow the recipe as laid out by the powder manufacturer, how can that be a test that the data is wrong? :rolleyes:
 
Pay close attention to all of the words in this statement from Hodgdon:

"For those loads listed where a starting load is not shown, start 10% below the suggested maximum load and then approach maximums carefully, watching for any sign of pressure (difficult extraction, cratered and flattened or blown primers, and unusual recoil). H110 and Winchester 296 loads should not be reduced more than 3%.

Reduce H110 and Winchester 296 loads 3% and work up from there. H110 and Winchester 296 if reduced too much will cause inconsistent ignition. In some cases it will lodge a bullet in the barrel, causing a hazardous situation (Barrel Obstruction). This may cause severe personal injury or death to users or bystanders. DO NOT REDUCE H110 LOADS BY MORE THAN 3%."

And, being qualified by the statement that they didn't happen to post a minimum thereby determining that the minimum for that specific load would be simply taking the maximum that they post and multiplying by .97.

Like this (if there wasn't a minimum load posted): 48.5gr * .97 = 47.045gr and, I bet with the LRM, it would have shot like a house afire! ;)
 
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Case in point:
300 AAC Blackout:

230 GR. BER TACT Hodgdon H110 .308" 2.260" 9.5 1085 34,500 CUP
No minimum load. Use the formula I explained above.
 
I did find THIS interesting too as I perused the H110/W296 data for a bunch of calibers. When they went to the heaviest bullets in the 454 Casull, almost 400gr, they reduced by 12%! :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

But, since they give a minimum, they must have tested that data to safely ignite and get the bullet out of most barrels! ;)

Do I need to go on? "Oh, no, you have gone on quite enough!" :p :p :p :p
 
Well Skip,

The HODGDON start load is more than 3% reduction from the max load and the data calls for a LRM primer. So my point was that the 3% rule does not seem to apply in this case does it??
He used this the first time and that is the pictures.

Primer: Winchester LRM


So I do not know what math you are using.

.97 of 48.5 is 47.05 which is more than their starting load of 45.0 So you can not say "never reduce below 3%"

I also believe that Hornady knows what they are doing and would not hesitate to use their data on any load even if is it is more than 3% reduction.

I understand that you are grouping the statement in with the first paragraph of "when a star load is not given" But I do not read it that way based on the second paragraph.



240 GR. HDY XTP MAG. H110 .452" 2.160" 45.0 2084 43,600 PSI 48.5 2254 52,100 PSI
 
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Roy, YOU have to read ALL of the words in the sentence.

LOOK:
"For those loads listed where a starting load is not shown,"

What could that POSSIBLY mean? Well, if they tested a load and they COULD reduce by more than 3% then that would be the load THEY listed! If NOT, USE THE 3% rule!

All of the words, brother, all of them............

Well, anyway, I know you know math, and I am not an English teacher or a "convincer of folks that want to be wrong". So........Later.......
 
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