Does anyone here load for the .44 mag Desert Eagle?

peppercorn

peppercorn

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I have acquired one of these recently in a trade deal and have read that the gas system is sensitive to 2400 powder and it being 'dirty' , which in turn can clog the gas system.

I know that you are not supposed to run lead bullets due to the gas system but am unclear on the powder being an issue.

Due to the recent 'run on components' I have plenty of 2400 but can't find any H110, which is frequently recommended for this particular gun/load.

If anyone has insight I would really appreciate the input.

Maybe more to the point would be to ask: How does 2400 compare to H110, with regard to cleanliness, when run at near maximum charge?
 
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Maybe I should come at this from a different angle.

If, 2400 were that much dirtier than H110, wouldn't the extra powder/dirt residue be completely soluble in cleaning solvent?

I can understand how the lead would plug it up, that's obvious. I am just having a hard time seeing how the powder would cause a problem if the gun were cleaned properly.
 
Either of those powders will be "dirtier" at less than full charge. I would not worry about using either of them.

I use full load H110 in my M1 carbine and there is lots of carbon around the gas block after just a few rounds.

Where did you read this?? Clean the gun.

Whats with all the dirty powder threads lately??(not you):eek:

Powder burns, it gets carbon and soot.
 
Rule3 said:
Either of those powders will be "dirtier" at less than full charge. I would not worry about using either of them.

I use full load H110 in my M1 carbine and there is lots of carbon around the gas block after just a few rounds.

Where did you read this?? Clean the gun.

Whats with all the dirty powder threads lately??(not you):eek:

Powder burns, it gets carbon and soot.
Click to expand...

Rule3,
Thanks for the reply.

Someone on ' the firing line forum' stated that the owners manual , for their gun,had said this. Others chimed in and said that theirs didn't, and so it goes.
Accordingly, Magnum Research says that you just shouldn't reload for it at all, but, many do, apparently. Which makes sense.

Anyway, it is also stated that the gas system, once contaminated with lead, it is next to imossible to clean out, due to the geometry of the system. That being said I guess I am gunshy about getting anything in it that I can't get out.

Is the gas system in your weapon also geometrically complex, as far as being able to clean it out goes?
 
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The deagle is a gas gun, and unburned powder residue could plug the gas ports. I'd reload for one with H110/296, or perhaps 680 and call it good.
 
peppercorn said:
Rule3,
Thanks for the reply.

Someone on ' the firing line forum' stated that the owners manual , for their gun,had said this. Others chimed in and said that theirs didn't, and so it goes.
Accordingly, Magnum Research says that you just shouldn't reload for it at all, but, many do, apparently. Which makes sense.

Anyway, it is also stated that the gas system, once contaminated with lead, it is next to imossible to clean out, due to the geometry of the system. That being said I guess I am gunshy about getting anything in it that I can't get out.

Is the gas system in your weapon also geometrically complex, as far as being able to clean it out goes?
Click to expand...

Any gas gun, take the most common, the AR15 has a thin gas tube from the barrel to the action. You are not supposed to even mess with it (clean it) even though they sell long pipe cleaners. It is subjected to such high pressure it blows out most anything/ Gas operated shotguns same thing, Ruger Mini 14 or 30's have a gas block. So do SKS rifles, but those, the whole gas piston can be removed.If it actually needs cleaning shooting some canned brake cleaner with the little straw will clean out carbon and powder fouling.

As to lead that's a whole different story, I would not shoot lead in the gun as lead particles or melted lead would be very hard to remove, just like a barrel of a revolver. That is hard enough, I would not want to try to get it out of a gas system.

I do not know enough about the Desert Eagle but I could figure it out. I would not shoot lead out of it but would not worry about the powder.
 
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First off I must admit I don't load for and haven't shot a Desert Eagle in a long while now.

My thought is in conflict with the "dirty powder issue" which I would think is BS anyways. All the powders I've seen burn cleaner at higher pressure and thus there is less unburned powder to be perceived as "dirty powder issue".

My thought is I wonder if the Desert Eagle requires a specific powder burn rate for the gas system to work at optimal levels. Does it require a slow burning powder like H110 or 2400? Does it work better with something more medium rate like Unique? I doubt that one as from what I've read the DE was made to run with full bore heavy loads. Maybe loads that use the fast burners like Bullseye make the gun short stroke or otherwise act funny. Just thoughts and conjecture on my part. Most auto loaders are made to run at a specific load and can be load sensitive to how well the action handles different loads.
 
Great insight guys.
It seems the vast majority of reloaders for the DE feel that H110 is the 'best' at full strength loads. It cycles the slide reliably. Others say that 2400, also at full, or near to it, strength cycle the action predictably and reliably.
So, yes, slow burn rate and heavy crimp come up frequently when reading about what works best with the DE.

From my experience with 2400 in the .44 mag I would say that it is a little dirtier at 17.5 grains than it is at 19.7 grains.
I have not used H110, ever, so, I have no real reference point when it comes to which is 'dirtier' than the other, at or near full strength.

Have you guys seen any noticable difference, between 2400 and H110, at or near full strength levels, in the residue it leaves behind?

I tend to agree, that any powder or carbon fouling 'should' be able to be blown out with brake cleaner.
I just want to make sure I am not missing something here and create a real problem for myself.
 
Once again this is less of a powder selection in use but a matter of how the powder is used. Everything I've ever read and been told about H110 is that you MUST load it at or near max level or it doesn't ignite proper. Add to that you MUST use a magnum primer if you want it to ignite proper. Bullet crimp is also a MUST if you want that fraction of a second of proper ignition to take place. This is all less of an issue with a load for the gun than a properly built load period. So the reason I say once again is you don't want a bunch of unburned powder gumming up the works and that's what you will get from reduced loads.

These people you are listening to seem less like they are talking about what makes a good load than they are how to make a good load. They may be confused in how they are saying it and not quite as clear or maybe they are saying it in a misleading manner. Either way you look at it slow burning powders give the highest velocity and they give the best results when you pay attention to what you are doing when making your ammo. And any auto loader is more dependent on how well the load was created while that is part of why a revolver has had the "six for sure" cliche forever and a day now. The auto needs everything set just right while the revolver will allow some error and still function. A dirty reduced load in a revolver will still go bang with the next trigger pull while the auto is relying on the recoil compressing the spring at a certain speed, the ejector stripping out the spent case, the slide speed being correct enough for the empty to fully clear, yada yada, yada, you get my point.

So just brush up on what it takes to make a good .44 magnum loading and I would think if you use 2400 then as long as you do it right they will work just fine.
 
Lots of people shoot lead in gas operated guns. I think more of a problem is the lube that may mess up a gas system. I know I said not to shoot lead but only because using jacket bullets is a lot cleaner.

There are many videos on you tube on the DE and cleaning it. So even if it gets clogged it appears easy enough to clean. There is some all in one tool I saw on one of them,

All they do is bleed some of the gas from a hole in the barrel to activate the action. If the hole clogs then it's a single shot.
 
Maximumbob54 said:
Once again this is less of a powder selection in use but a matter of how the powder is used. Everything I've ever read and been told about H110 is that you MUST load it at or near max level or it doesn't ignite proper. Add to that you MUST use a magnum primer if you want it to ignite proper. Bullet crimp is also a MUST if you want that fraction of a second of proper ignition to take place. This is all less of an issue with a load for the gun than a properly built load period. So the reason I say once again is you don't want a bunch of unburned powder gumming up the works and that's what you will get from reduced loads.

These people you are listening to seem less like they are talking about what makes a good load than they are how to make a good load. They may be confused in how they are saying it and not quite as clear or maybe they are saying it in a misleading manner. Either way you look at it slow burning powders give the highest velocity and they give the best results when you pay attention to what you are doing when making your ammo. And any auto loader is more dependent on how well the load was created while that is part of why a revolver has had the "six for sure" cliche forever and a day now. The auto needs everything set just right while the revolver will allow some error and still function. A dirty reduced load in a revolver will still go bang with the next trigger pull while the auto is relying on the recoil compressing the spring at a certain speed, the ejector stripping out the spent case, the slide speed being correct enough for the empty to fully clear, yada yada, yada, you get my point.

So just brush up on what it takes to make a good .44 magnum loading and I would think if you use 2400 then as long as you do it right they will work just fine.
Click to expand...

Great points you make, and a concise analysis of the 'finer' points to making good ammunition.
Being fairly new to reloading I come here, to this forum, for the Bottom Line and the hair splitting subtleties that aren't explained in the 'ABCs' of reloading.


Rule3 said:
Lots of people shoot lead in gas operated guns. I think more of a problem is the lube that may mess up a gas system. I know I said not to shoot lead but only because using jacket bullets is a lot cleaner.

There are many videos on you tube on the DE and cleaning it. So even if it gets clogged it appears easy enough to clean. There is some all in one tool I saw on one of them,

All they do is bleed some of the gas from a hole in the barrel to activate the action. If the hole clogs then it's a single shot.
Click to expand...

At this point I am commited to jacketed, closed base bullets only, for this particular platform.

I haven't found any videos showing how to clean the gas port particulary.
I did find a schematic of the gas port and understand a little better about how difficullet it could be to clean. At each opening it makes an immediate right angle turn. I am not sure how that would be breached, in a worst case scenario, say if it were plugged with lead.

Since lead won't be a factor, in my case, I won't concen myself with that potential.

Back to the powder residue issue. Not trying to beat a dead horse.
It sounds like 2400, when loaded to near max, with a firm crimp, won't produce any greater residue than H110. Is that a fair enough bottom line?
 
peppercorn said:
Back to the powder residue issue. Not trying to beat a dead horse.
It sounds like 2400, when loaded to near max, with a firm crimp, won't produce any greater residue than H110. Is that a fair enough bottom line?
Click to expand...


Yes, or HS 6 or whatever mag powder you use.:D

From the field strip video, the gas piston is the main part. without seeing the gun there has to be a hole or port in the barrel. Keep the piston clean and I think all will be well.;)

I do not know what model or year you have but it appears the DE has polygonal rifling like my Kahr 9mm so lead is not a good option anyway.


http://zvis.com/dep/depcln.shtml
 
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H110/W296 when loaded correctly, top of the data, firm crimp, magnum primers, and there will be NO perceptible residue left when shooting jacketed bullets, none.

I have not used enough 2400 to know how it performs at the top end of it's data as I have always used it in less than maximum situations, because I could. I can tell you this, when 2400 is loaded like that, it leaves all kinds of uglies behind, but, they brush right out.

If you want to get something that is designed for a firearm with gas ports, pick up some WC820 from a MILSURP powder supplier, such as GI Brass. It was designed for use in the M1 Carbine and works super in the 44Mag.
 
Rule3 said:
Yes, or HS 6 or whatever mag powder you use.:D

From the field strip video, the gas piston is the main part. without seeing the gun there has to be a hole or port in the barrel. Keep the piston clean and I think all will be well.;)

I do not know what model or year you have but it appears the DE has polygonal rifling like my Kahr 9mm so lead is not a good option anyway.


Desert Eagle Pistol Cleaning
Click to expand...

The piston portion is easy to clean but the gas port actually starts just in front of the chamber and runs down the length of the barrel before doing a 180 into the piston. This makes it nearly impossible to clean via conventional means or mandating an ultra sonic cleaner.
 
Skip Sackett said:
H110/W296 when loaded correctly, top of the data, firm crimp, magnum primers, and there will be NO perceptible residue left when shooting jacketed bullets, none.

I have not used enough 2400 to know how it performs at the top end of it's data as I have always used it in less than maximum situations, because I could. I can tell you this, when 2400 is loaded like that, it leaves all kinds of uglies behind, but, they brush right out.

If you want to get something that is designed for a firearm with gas ports, pick up some WC820 from a MILSURP powder supplier, such as GI Brass. It was designed for use in the M1 Carbine and works super in the 44Mag.
Click to expand...

OK, more good information. I didn't know there was a powder specific to a gas operated weapon.
As of now, even after checking your 'pull down' source, I am limited to 2400. As in powder is scarce out there.
So, I will stick to the top end of the data for 2400, which is 20.5 for Lymann,or, 21 according to Alliant's on line data center.

BlueOvalBandit said:
The piston portion is easy to clean but the gas port actually starts just in front of the chamber and runs down the length of the barrel before doing a 180 into the piston. This makes it nearly impossible to clean via conventional means or mandating an ultra sonic cleaner.
Click to expand...

This has been my concern, with regard to working up loads.
 
I recommend IMR 4227, on the 1911 forum another recommendation was, in addition to 4227, AA#9 for 44 DE loads. Not sure I can post the link. W296/H110 need to be pushed to burn clean.
 
peppercorn said:
OK, more good information. I didn't know there was a powder specific to a gas operated weapon.
As of now, even after checking your 'pull down' source, I am limited to 2400. As in powder is scarce out there.
So, I will stick to the top end of the data for 2400, which is 20.5 for Lymann,or, 21 according to Alliant's on line data center.



This has been my concern, with regard to working up loads.
Click to expand...


The same way you clean a AR15 (gas) operated gun) you DON't. There is so much pressure getting blasted through there is cleans it out. As I mentioned above they sell long q tips for the AR and you are not supposed to even do that. A shot of Gun Scrubber or Brake cleaner if you must.
 
Rule3 said:
The same way you clean a AR15 (gas) operated gun) you DON't. There is so much pressure getting blasted through there is cleans it out. As I mentioned above they sell long q tips for the AR and you are not supposed to even do that. A shot of Gun Scrubber or Brake cleaner if you must.
Click to expand...

I follow you on the pressure.
It seems that maybe the dirtiest part may,in fact, be at the begining, where the piston is located.

I had a recurring thought today, as I pondered the subject.
Magnum reasearch states that a user should try many different 'brands' of ammo in the DE, as long as they are all 'jacketed'. And, of course, no lead.

They don't say, use the 'cleanest burning' ammo. They merely stress that it be jacketed.

As I recall, some 'factory' .44 Magnum ammo is very dirty, even compared to my 2400 loads, when I have loaded it anywhere above 18.5 grains. No side by side comparo, just recalling past experience.

I guess I am trying to make the argument that some of the 'recommended factory ammo' out there must be dirtier than 2400. Right?
 
I think you are worrying about something that has not even happened yet. Even if it gets dirty, then clean it. as long as you use full loads of 2400 or H110 that's the best you can do. As I mentioned I use full loads of H110 in my M1 30 carbine and it gets a lot of black soot around the little gas piston but it still cycles and goes bang, I field strip and spray it with break cleaner or gun scrubber.

Send me the gun, I will test for you no charge.:D
 
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