Passing on a warning about Nickel and Vinegar

Got a new Harbor Freight Ultrasonic cleaner and have been trying it out on some 308 once fired casings picked up at a local gun show. Recipe for the cleaning solution is 1 part White Vinegar, 3 parts Tap Water, one tablespoon Joy dish washing soap, and 1 tablespoon table salt. Good news is that two 8 minute cycles does a very nice job of cleaning up the casings and if they are deprimed the primer pockets come out spotless.

BTW, because Vinegar is acidic you do have to neutralize the casings immediately after taking them out of the cleaning bath. I've been using 2 tablespoons of Baking Soda in 4 cups of warm water for that and following that up with a through rinsing in running tap water. After that it's into an oven on warm to dry out.

Now the warning. This particular cleaning solution should NOT be used with anything Nickel plated. Had one single nickel plated Winchester casing in one batch and the initial results were quite ugly. Fortunately a second cleaning session after removing that nickel casing cleaned up the mess. However, if I had foolishly used this solution on a nickel plated pistol a complete and total refinish would be the only fix.

While all of this sounds rather time consuming the end result is casings that are far far cleaner than what I can get after 8 hours in a vibrating tumbler. As I have discovered deep casings such as rifle or revolver casings don't clean up very well at all in a vibrating tumbler so I went looking for a better method. So far the ultrasonic seems to be just the ticket. However, I will still run the casings through the vibrating tumbler for an hour or so just to put a nice polish on the outside of the casings.

Good to know.

It almost sounds like all the ingredients are in there for a somewhat primitive electroless nickel plating system to take form.
Nickel source, acetic acid, phosphorous in the soap perhaps.
Just my guess,,I'm certainly no scientist & I read G&A during chemistry class in HS.

Years ago we used to soak our 45-70 black powder cases in vinegar to neutralize the BP residue/sulphur in the cases. It really stank and fizzed but what I hated was it turned the cases brown. However after the vinegar you washed them in soap and water but the stain remained even after some vigorous tumbling action

Regards

Been using that solution for years on regular brass, never tried it on nickel.

Nickel is just a plating so if there is a scratch or nick and it gets under it it will mess up the finish.

Just like Hoppes #9 should not be left on Nickle Guns.

I quite using vinegar solutions early on.
it has an effect on brass.

garbler said:

Years ago we used to soak our 45-70 black powder cases in vinegar to neutralize the BP residue/sulphur in the cases. It really stank and fizzed but what I hated was it turned the cases brown. However after the vinegar you washed them in soap and water but the stain remained even after some vigorous tumbling action

Regards

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It wasn't the vinegar that turned the cases brown, it is the residual Sulphur compounds in the fouling. If you would notice, the areas of the cases touched by the fouling are deeply stained before ever doing a thing to clean the cases, this is virtually instantaneous when black powder if shot in brass cases. This is the reason many black powder cartridges had tinned or nickled cases, especially those expected to be reloaded.

I have a sonic cleaner coming-- For untold years I have used a Orange Kool-aid solution when cleaning brass, some of which was REALLY nasty. I then do a quick wash with DAWN, rinse a couple times and let air dry for a couple days or so. I am always working ahead so there is no delay in loading. Mostly the brass will be stored until needed. I find myself loading 10 boxes at a time of what ever I need so there is always plenty. Rarely am I caught short. Now this sonic cleaner might be a different story-- I am getting a LYMAN, and already have their cleaner on hand but will try MY solution, just to see how if, or how it works. I have just cleaned up about 8 gallons of brass, but have a few M of nickel that will need done. My solution has done fine on nickel in the past. Guess I will have to wait and see, if the thing ever comes in.

warning

I have a Lyman ultra sonic I have been using for about 18 months.
I really like how it works, I have used their solutions and some of my own
homemade ones, frankly I think they all work well, I am starting to think that plain water would work to a decent degree.
Anyway, I have been using powdered citric acid that I buy in a store where it is marketed for canning tomatoes. Some of that and a bit of Dawn seems to work as well as Lymans which is rather expensive.
Sadly the Lyman unit started leaking recently, but only when hot ?
After it cools it does not leak. I will have to check into the warranty , I doubt it is more then a year though.

Alk8944 said:

It wasn't the vinegar that turned the cases brown, it is the residual Sulphur compounds in the fouling. If you would notice, the areas of the cases touched by the fouling are deeply stained before ever doing a thing to clean the cases, this is virtually instantaneous when black powder if shot in brass cases. This is the reason many black powder cartridges had tinned or nickled cases, especially those expected to be reloaded.

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Yes I agree what I was saying and apparently not very well was that the reaction of the vinegar and sulphur were the culprit. I will say this though. I shoot a bit of BP in my 45-70's and 38-55 off hand Ballard and my cases are ejected pretty bright with only some soot and lube around the mouths but the rest are clean. Me and some other shooters tried the vinegar back in the 80's after reading about it in one of Mike Venturino's articles. We decapped, dropped them in the vinegar and shook them a minute or two then rinsed with water then washed in warm soapy water with neck brushed on the inside to remove fouling. The interesting thing is that Rem cases were always stained darker and worse than Winchester ? There weren't many nickel cases around and I don't know many even today who shoot them

Regards

venomballistics said:

I quite using vinegar solutions early on.
it has an effect on brass.

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Further reading on the internet indicates that there is some concern about the effect of vinegar on brass. One specific source involved in restoring Reed Organs indicated that the addition of Salt to a vinegar based mix leads to the production of Hydrochloric Acid. Since free Hydrogen is a specific and well established cause for embrittlement of brass I've decided to drop that tablespoon of salt from my mix. Don't think that I did any harm to my brass with the salt containing solution because it was so dilute but why take chances.

Note, I could not find ANY examples of casing failures attributed to a vinegar based cleaning solution so that does provide a bit of re-assurance. However, as with anything picked up on the internet a bit of caution is advisable. Until I get a few cycles on this new brass I plan on starting them out with light loads and proceed with caution from there. According to my Lyman and Lee manuals a starting load for 308 Winchester runs about 40,000 psi and that should be perfectly safe for my initial tests.

Current mix is the same as in the original post with the salt left out. Doing this does slow the level of cleaning effect by a small margin but I'm not looking for spotless brand new looking brass, just brass clean enough to reload without excess wear on my sizing dies and with primer pockets clean enough to not need individual brushing.

I quit using nickel cases a long time ago. They look pretty, but I've had such terrible case life that I won't bend over to pick them up.

If I had seen those nickel plated casings they would have been tossed into the trash without any hesitation. I'm with Cdog concerning nickel casings, IMO they are worthless. I also have to wonder what advantage at all that nickel plated casings might offer. Yeah, they are pretty when new but from the reloading standpoint they tend to crack, the plating can't be good for sizing dies, and as I've seen some cleaning solutions will cause them to wreak a mess on a batch of brass being cleaned.

scooter123 said:

Further reading on the internet indicates that there is some concern about the effect of vinegar on brass. One specific source involved in restoring Reed Organs indicated that the addition of Salt to a vinegar based mix leads to the production of Hydrochloric Acid. Since free Hydrogen is a specific and well established cause for embrittlement of brass I've decided to drop that tablespoon of salt from my mix. Don't think that I did any harm to my brass with the salt containing solution because it was so dilute but why take chances.

Note, I could not find ANY examples of casing failures attributed to a vinegar based cleaning solution so that does provide a bit of re-assurance. However, as with anything picked up on the internet a bit of caution is advisable. Until I get a few cycles on this new brass I plan on starting them out with light loads and proceed with caution from there. According to my Lyman and Lee manuals a starting load for 308 Winchester runs about 40,000 psi and that should be perfectly safe for my initial tests.

Current mix is the same as in the original post with the salt left out. Doing this does slow the level of cleaning effect by a small margin but I'm not looking for spotless brand new looking brass, just brass clean enough to reload without excess wear on my sizing dies and with primer pockets clean enough to not need individual brushing.

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look for dalmatian cases. I had a batch of brass early on that make about 5 cycles. when the red copper spots start to show, they flake at the mouth and split.

scooter123 said:

If I had seen those nickel plated casings they would have been tossed into the trash without any hesitation. I'm with Cdog concerning nickel casings, IMO they are worthless. I also have to wonder what advantage at all that nickel plated casings might offer. Yeah, they are pretty when new but from the reloading standpoint they tend to crack, the plating can't be good for sizing dies, and as I've seen some cleaning solutions will cause them to wreak a mess on a batch of brass being cleaned.

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They were made or used to prevent the discoloration of regular brass ( Verdigris) They looked nice in the belt loops and did not get dingy . It's odd that most of the SD ammo is still in Nickle? Guess they can charge more for it that way.

Using the vinegar and salt solution does create a mild acid as that is how it cleans, Vinegar in itself is a acid, like citrus or Lem Shine. The HCL it forms is not stong enough to damage the brass. No, you should not leave the brass in the solution for days. 15-20 minutes and then rinse with fresh water and all is well. Barkeepers Friend cleans brass very well it is Oxalic acid.