Speer 158 LSWC leading!

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tacotime

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I want to like the "inexpensive" swaged Speer 158gr LSWC. But I can't get it to stop leading up. Leads up in a 15, 19, 36 and SP101. Six rounds shows noticeable lead, with low, medium or full power 38 loads (not +P). Bullseye powder.

I know about throat sizing issues, but I would think one of these four guns would be right enough to avoid leading.

Takes the fun out of plinking.

Is it the bullet, or the loads, or what? Is anybody shooting these bullets and not getting leading?

Thanks.
 
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How much Bullseye are you using? Which primer, magnum or standard?

If the powder you have chosen runs at a very high heat (like Bullseye) you may simply be vaporizing the back end of the soft lead projectile

I usually use Unique or more recently 231 for soft swagged projectiles just like 358156hp suggests. 231 burns at the coolest of these three powders, bullseye is the hotest
 
tacotime said:
Is it the bullet, or the loads, or what? Is anybody shooting these bullets and not getting leading?

Thanks.
Click to expand...

I have used the Speer 158GR LSWC (.358) with low and low/med loads of bullseye without a leading issue. The Remington 158GR LSWC (.358) has worked for me as well, but the lube is definitely messy while loading. I know this doesn't really help with your situation, but I wanted to at least answer your question. I have used these loads in models - 14, 15, 686, 64, 10, 627, GP100.
 
Since it is happening in 4 different guns, it would seem safe to assume it isn't an issue with the barrel sizing. That makes we wonder: 1) if you got a batch of bullets that were improperly sized (measure their diameter to make sure it is correct) or 2) you are using a FCD and are swaging the bullets so that they are undersized. Since you are not loading to +p, you shouldn't be pushing the bullet too fast and, while I don't think the issue is with BE you are using, you could try a slower power (e.g., Unique) and see if the problem persists. As already noted, you could switch to cast, but I feel like you should be able to get the bullets you have to work without leading.

While it doesn't help, I've shot the same bullet out of my M36 using 231 and Unique without any signs of leading.

Good luck, just keep at it and you'll find what works for you.
 
I have found that by applying Liquid Alox to Speer and Hornady swaged bullets I can easily drive them to "medium magnum" velocities with very minimal leading -- even after dozens of rounds, a couple of passes with a dry bore brush whisks the lead right out. In .38 Special loads, the treatment reduces leading to zero. My favorite .357 field load is a 158 gr. Hornady swaged SWCHP driven to 1250 fps.
 
I've shot tons....

I've shot tons of speer and hornady swaged bullets. With target loads under about 1050 fps (most around 850) I've not had a leading problem. The rifling in some types of barrels are harder to please with lead bullets.

It COULD be a bullet diameter/bore diameter mismatch but swaged bullets are so soft they easily size to fit in the forcing cone. If a bullet is too small for the bore, gas cutting of the lead can end up in the barrel.
 
Ive used the Speer and Hornady swaged bullets in 38s and 44s with Unique but had to keep the muzzle velocity down around 700-750 fps to prevent leading.Cast seem to work so much better.
 
+3 or so for Unique or 231 or hp38. I have shot many thousands of the Speer 158 SWCHP and the Remington 158 SWC swaged bullets over Unique and 231 (hp38 is the same as 231 with Hodgdons name on it) and never had a leading issue in any 38 or 357 I have used them in. Loads have ranged from 850fps to 950fps. My all time favorite is 5.2 of Unique which gives about 925fps depending on the gun in a 4" barrel and expands beautifully even in my 640 with it's 1 7/8 inch barrel. The bullseye may simply be to fast/hot for the swaged bullets. You can go to hard cast if Bullseye is all you have available and that probably will stop the leading as well.
Chip King
 
OK. BE had the best groups but I will go back and test UN and 231 again. Also, I will check the diameters, but I think they are allright.

The best groups were 3.5 BE with WSP. That is the max non +P load in my Speer manual for that exact bullet.

Thanks!
 
Just a guess, but sounds like typical undersize cylinder throats (.355" - .356") are swaging your bullets down to typical bore groove diameter (.3555" - .356"), or worse yet - under groove diameter.

Speaking strictly of cast bullets, most bullet makers recommend bullet diameter be at least .001" larger then groove diameter - to hold the rifling under pressure. My feeling is that, .002" larger, is better. Figure a .356" bore groove diameter, & cylinder throats should be a uniform ID of .357" minimum. .3575" - .358" ID would be better.

Not that this is a chiseled in stone, hard & fast rule, but IMHO at least - it's a real good starting place.

There are always work arounds: a faster / slower powder, or a softer / harder bullet alloy - to name a couple.

To get a rough idea of your cylinder throat ID, drop a .358" sized bullet (unloaded / bullet only) into the chamber - nose first, & see how much pressure is required to push it through. If it just falls through, throats are probably .359". If it takes a slight push, probably .3585". A very firm push, .358". Gotta' jam it? Probably .357" - or less. Etc., etc..

Measure your expander. You need neck tension, but too much on a soft (swaged) bullet, can in itself, reduce bullet diameter. I switched to a Lyman M die, for .38 / .357. The Lyman expander measures .355", which is .001" bigger then the diameter of my Dillon expander. Takes an extra step, but worth it for me. Every little bit helps, & I use a harder cast 158LSWC from Dardas.

One last tip. Go to Hodgdons online data page for your caliber (.38spl?), & try 12 rounds at the listed minimum starting load for Bullseye (or ww231, titegroup, etc.). For grins, load 12 more at 0.2 grains heavier charge. Then, finish these loaded rounds off w/ a VERY light crimp - maybe .002" - .003". Nearly no crimp, in fact.

Sounds crazy? That's what I said till I tried it - based on someone else's recommendation. Groups w/ both my 686, & 64 tightened up exponentially, & I learned how to smile at the range, again...
 
Last edited:
I don't know what to tell you to help but I can tell you I load those very bullets for an FBI replica load and I get no leading at all in several revolvers. I'm using HS-6 with a magnum primer and I push the bullets up above 900 fps on some cases. Pressures are estimated to be just below the 20,000 PSI limits for a .38 Special +P load.

Where are you getting the leading? Is the lead at the forcing cone, towards the end of the barrel or throughout the entire barrel? (is does matter)
 
keep the loads in the 850 or under range. I have shot many of these bullets and any time I try to push them to 900,i get leading. have tried these bullets in at least 20 different guns and always the same result. good luck to you. also have tried a variety of powders and it doesn't seem to matter.
 
ArchAngelCD said:
.... I can tell you I load those very bullets for an FBI replica load and I get no leading at all in several revolvers. I'm using HS-6 with a magnum primer and I push the bullets up above 900 fps on some cases. Pressures are estimated to be just below the 20,000 PSI limits for a .38 Special +P load.
Click to expand...

Out of curiosity, what revolver are you using this load in? Ever check the throats? Also, how do they group?

Pretty sure I've got the mouse fart target load figured out, but need to start working on an effective S/D load - at some point. Not that I'd ever use anything but a factory load for S/D, of course... ;=]
 
Lots of good info.

Note: I'm not using the Lee FCD... and using only a light crimp.

Leading is heaviest from the cone forward, but traces through most of the bore.

I'll get the chrono out and stay 800 or less.

I'll check the throats with the drop in test, and maybe order up some pin gauges.

GCF, were you saying in your test to use the light crimp only on the second 12 rounds, or all the 24?

Thanks.
 
tacotime said:
GCF, were you saying in your test to use the light crimp only on the second 12 rounds, or all the 24?

Thanks.
Click to expand...

Very light crimp on all 24 minimum charge loads. In other words, try one very light crimp, w/ a few minimum charge variations.

Loads in my case (64-5 / 3" / .358" throats) .38spl Fed brass (trimmed), wwsp primers, & either 3.2 - 3.3 grns titegroup, or 3.0 - 3.2 ww231.

Barely touched, w/ the Dillon crimp die - maybe .002" - .003".

Again, for me - absolute book starting loads, & "nearly no" crimp. You can always bump the load up 0.1 grain at a time, if you are getting unburned powder, or poor groups.

I have noticed that a "slightly" heavier crimp, produced better results - as the charge gets a little (0.4 grns) heavier.

If leading, another thing to check for, is bore constriction - especially where it threads into the frame.

Did you try the cylinder throat / bullet drop check?
 
Tacotime,
Try staying .5 grain below max and add a thin coat of Lee liquid alox to the bullet, let dry and load with the light, light crimp. These bullets are soft and don't carry a lot of lube on them which adds to the problem. I think you can get them to work with Bullseye...I know how hard it is to find powder these days and sometimes you got to work with whatever you got on hand.
Don't give up on the bullets just yet.
Gary
 
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