45 ACP hollow point bullet, need advice.

Reloads and the Law. It was all started by some bored Gun Writer in one of the Gun rags. IMO because he wanted to see what suckers that his readers were.

THERE HAS NEVER BEEN ONE SINGLE PROSECUTION WHERE RELOADS WERE EVEN MENTIONED DURING THE TRIAL. Never.

So, no need to worry about using reloads during a Self Defense incident. There isn't ANY forensic test that can identify a "reload" from commercial ammunition and all you have to do is Keep Your Mouth Shut about your ammo selection. The simple fact is that you are under no obligation to identify what ammunition you carry. In fact you are under no obligation to do any more than identify yourself and comply with police orders concerning turning over your firearm and possible detention. What you want to be concerned about is the Laws in play in the State where that incident took place and your actions during that incident. Basically, if you have to shoot someone make sure it was really necessary and keep your mouth shut until you have consulted a Lawyer. BTW, any police officer involved in a shooting retains a lawyer before making any statement so remember that tidbit if the police questioning you tell you that you don't need a Lawyer. The Supreme Court has clearly ruled that the Police are under no obligation to be the least bit truthful with you during an investigation and they are NOT on your "side".
 
Doubless said:
What's the matter? Google not work for you? It took me less than ten seconds to find a statement from Ayoob where he says he hopes his article refutes the Urban Legend of "nobody ever getting into trouble in court for using handloads for self defense". Go find it yourself. I am not your "hey boy".

And you are just as wrong as you can be about him never being involved with a court case involving handloads. You don't know what you are talking about.

You might want to read about how Mr. Ayoob got to be the recognized authority he is. And, I might add, he posts from time to time on this forum...

Meanwhile, you might wish to read this: it doesn't state that anyone will go to prison over the use of handloads for SD, but it darned sure makes me think about "what if"... and to me, it just ain't worth the risk.

Handloaded Ammunition: Not a Good Idea for Concealed Carry/Self Defense
Click to expand...
This may come as a shock to you, but in a debate it is not the job of the opposing point of view to go out and seek proof for your claims.

As your post indicates, you were unable to find a single case to present to the Forum in support of your argument. Instead you point us to an article where someone told you to do this.
 
colt_saa said:
Would you be kind enough to point out just one time when this happened since Concealed Carry has become so common. A link to the news article would be great.

Don't tell us so and so told you not to do it or you heard about it at the water cooler or you heard that your cousins, friends, brothers coworker had this happen to him, don't say some writer mentioned a case he heard about in tiny town USA in the 70s, show us an article. Just one article. Give us a link to the court case.

Urban Legend
Click to expand...

I would also like to see a court case where reloads made any difference in the outcome of a self defense plea - or even if a victim was charged after defending themselves. If in self defense, you hit a guy with a brick, rock or 2x4, would it make a difference? Lots of water fountain kool aid out there with absolutely no facts associated.
 
There was a guy in AZ, I believe, that used a 1911 10mm for self defense and got 7 years for using too powerful a cal. This isn't exactly the same but I suppose it could be argued that your custom loads are too powerful vs factory.

Just saying

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
 
Reloads vs. Factory Loads

My concern with reloads for self-defense is the possibility of producing a defective load. I have a bit more than 50 years of reloading experience and while I can try to give the impression that I'm capable of walking on water, I still screw up on occasion. So, my SD loads are always factory loads.

You won't find a bullet that is "37.4%" more likely to stop an adversary than another competing bullet. Frankly, in .45 ACP, they are all rather ominous-looking. What is most important is the relationship of the bullet shape with the feed ramp of your particular handgun. I have a little test that others might not agree with: I insert a magazine containing the ammunition I plan to use, then I "ride" the slide home to observe how the bullet negotiates the feed ramp. If it consistently feeds, then I go to live fire.

At times, a particular quality bullet just might not get along with a particular quality handgun.
 
Arik said:
There was a guy in AZ, I believe, that used a 1911 10mm for self defense and got 7 years for using too powerful a cal. This isn't exactly the same but I suppose it could be argued that your custom loads are too powerful vs factory.

Just saying

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
So, if I grab a 30-30 Winchester and shoot someone, i doubt they would send me to jail, but if I use a 10mm I could go to jail. And unless the 10mm has gotten a lot more ooomph, I would say it does not have the terminal that a 30-30 has or if you want, a 30-06. I could easily say, it was what was in my room upstairs when a guy broke in my house. Or better yet, a 12 gauge / the VP told me to use it ;)

no offense, but I'd have to read the court case for that. Even the M1 Carbine, which people bitch about being too weak for hunting deer, I believe that the ballistics are of a 357?
 
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The often quoted "Mas" case came down to an issue of forensics being unable to duplicate the patterns of the reloads, not a matter of using reloads. Unless your state has a law stating (XXX ammo type/load, such as HPs in NJ) is illegal to use, carry what you wish.

And for those who so often quote the reliability of factory ammo, I've never, not once, had to recall my reloads. I've had more factory ammo fails than reloads fail (2-dud primers in the same pack).
 
I carry a CS45, and I have a 4513TSW by my bed. Both are loaded with Federal Premium Defense .45 165gr Hydra Shok.
 
LostintheOzone said:
I'm going to load some defensive ammo to be used in my 1911 or my 625. I'm looking at 230 gr. Hornady XTP jacketed hollow points. Is this a good defensive bullet? Is there anything else out there that would be better? So far I've only loaded lead and know very little about jacketed bullets.

Any help would be appreciated.
Click to expand...

Good value bullet. Extensively used & tested. Not the absolute best mind you, but very good. Most 1911's don't have a problem feeding them, but I have read where some guys had to fiddle with the COL a bit. Buy a box, put them together and see what you think. I use the 185gr version quite happily.

PS. Ignore that forum quasi-legal opinion BS - totally meaningless doo-doo that surfaces every time somebody mentions "self-defense".
 
SMSgt said:
The often quoted "Mas" case came down to an issue of forensics being unable to duplicate the patterns of the reloads, not a matter of using reloads. Unless your state has a law stating (XXX ammo type/load, such as HPs in NJ) is illegal to use, carry what you wish.
Click to expand...

The often quoted "Mas" case was also about whether the deceased was a victim of murder or suicide, and the rounds were unable to be duplicated, not because they were handloads, but because the husband, on trial for the murder of his wife, claimed he had loaded the bullets used in the gun to different velocities using difference powder charges. It wasn't that they didn't know the powders charges, but that they didn't know which powder charge propelled the killing bullet. The use of handloads did not convict Bias in the first trial, but actually helped to prevent his conviction. Bias was found guilty of killing his wife after 4 trials and the use of handloads made no difference in the decision. How the "Mas" ever got "never use handloads for SD" outta this, is beyond me.

SMSgt said:
And for those who so often quote the reliability of factory ammo, I've never, not once, had to recall my reloads. I've had more factory ammo fails than reloads fail (2-dud primers in the same pack).
Click to expand...


Same here....one reason I load all my own ammo.....to get better ammo than standard factory fodder.
 
scooter123 said:
THERE HAS NEVER BEEN ONE SINGLE PROSECUTION WHERE RELOADS WERE EVEN MENTIONED DURING THE TRIAL. Never.
Click to expand...

Just as a point of information, this is not correct (as such broad statements often are not). I've worked on cases in which handloaded rounds were mentioned at trial and I have read appellate reports of others. A California statute refers to "reloaded ammunition" and cases are frequently brought under it.

Please, let's all be precise - especially when discussing the law.
 
Please ,Please everyone read the closed thread and especially post #141(Thanks dla!)

http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/183812-reloads-law-3.html

Give it a rest, leave it alone the Horse is very very dead!


beating-dead-horse%202.gif
 
Hey, this is new.

I knew this was around somewhere: a while back I found an OH case in which a guy's use of reloads appears to have cleared him of a killing. :) Here's a link -

http://statecasefiles.justia.com/do...t-court-of-appeals/11-ma-92.pdf?ts=1333466404 (look at ¶ 33)

And here's one where the Feds tried to link a dude to a killing by proving that his guns contained ammo that had been reloaded on the same machine as the one that reloaded the killer ammo! Gardner v. United States, 999 A.2d 55 (D.C. Cir. 2010).

What this shows is that cases are different and turn on different facts. :) Mas argues for eliminating prospective problematic variables by sticking with factory ammo - as I've said here before, I sometimes carry handloads myself, but I kinda know my way around a courtroom. My advice to my younger brother was to listen to Mas . . .
 
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M agency uses Speer GDHP's in all calibers. The .45 is 230 gr & works very well in the 1911's quite a few are packing. High quality magazines are a must though for 1911's.
 
I have Federal HST 230gr for my 625 and HST+p for my G36.

Good price, accurate load, great expansion in FBI testing.

Golden Sabers 185gr +p is my 185gr choice for really violent impact and nasty expansion.

Or upgun to Underwood .45Supers, w/ a stronger spring for the Glock.

Batts
 
Well, if we go back to the OP's original question it was what is a good bullet. Not the legal ramifications, if there are any.

Bottom line, in a 45 ACP any of the premium bullets mentioned are all fine. Heck you can stay with lead if you want. The LSWC mkes a great defensive round. Lead has been killing people for a long time (not trying to be crass) but what did they use before all the advertizing hype??

Military 1911's all had ball ammo.
 
The 45 230 xtp's have given excellent accuracy in all the pistols tried. They can be cheaper than fmj's and more readily available. They were specifically designed for consistent/limited expansion and greater penetration.

Apparently they have also undergone a reshaping/lengthening of the nose, and have not tried any of the new versions yet. Might have to do the hundreds already stocked up on.

http://www.powdervalleyinc.com/
 
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Erich said:
Just as a point of information, this is not correct (as such broad statements often are not). I've worked on cases in which handloaded rounds were mentioned at trial and I have read appellate reports of others. A California statute refers to "reloaded ammunition" and cases are frequently brought under it.

Please, let's all be precise - especially when discussing the law.
Click to expand...

Again, using handloads will likely never get into the criminal case. However, everything is on the table in the sure to follow civil case. Me, I don't want to give any attorney extra ammunition to sue me. I would use handloads for sd, but it would be very specific reasons behind it, like why my back packing 44mag was filled with reduced vel LHP for sd.
It will always come down to intent. If I have target LSWC loaded in my gun while stopping for milk on the way home from the range, & get involved in a shooting, not much can be made from that. If asked why I hand loaded my sd ammo & the reply is "to make a more deadly round", not gonna go well in the civil court.
 
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If this is .45ACP then I would opt for a 185gr or at least 200gr bullet for the added velocity to make the HP actually work. I would go so far as to say I would even make them +P loads. And I would run several hundred though the gun to make sure they function 100% before I ever trusted it.
 
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