I realize that I may lose my last fingernail hold on reality and can kiss anything like free time goodbye with this question but...

My stepfather has a .401 Winchester Self Loading, I believe it is a model 1910, that he can't find ammo for. Super cool rifle in excellent condition that his dad got around WWII. I've been poking around and it looks like brass can be reformed for this out of 7.62 X 39 brass. He has about 40 original cartridges but I told him not to shoot them they seem to have value as a collectors item.

I am looking at books about doing this sort of reforming. Any suggestions?

Like handloading standard cases wasn't enough of a time suck:P. Someday they'll just find me slumped over my press.

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Cartridges of the World has that you can reform 35 Remington brass that work perfectly.

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Nice. I'd really like to find a book with a good "how to" section. Does that book come with a section like that?

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From "Handloader's Manual Of Cartridge Conversions":

Make from: 9.3 x 72R.
Turn rim to .457 dia. and back chamfer.
Cut case to 1.55 and taper expand to .410 dia.
Trim to length and size in .401 die with the expander removed.
I.D. neck ream. Chamfer and full length size.
Fireform in chamber.

You can see why this book is not known for the most straight forward methods.

Ammo Encyclopedia tells us the maximum average breech pressure is 35.5 KPSI.
They also show that the original brass has a long tapered cut leading down
to the rim that may be necessary for the operation of the gun.
This will most likely not be reproduce-able from other brass.
Bullet diameter is .407"
Winchester dropped the cartridge (and gun) in 1936.
It was considered barely passable for deer.
The 405 was much more powerful (1200 F-P more)

My Cartridges Of The World (4th) has no conversion advice but does offer a couple of reloads:
24 gr. of 2400 under a 200 gr bullet. 2010 fps (max load)
31 gr. of 4227 same bullet 2100 fps (approx fact. ball)
28 gr. of 4227 under a 250 gr bullet. 1880 fps (max load)

(This is roughly the performance of a 44 magnum cartridge in a carbine).

This seems to be one of the very few cartridges that Ken Waters never shot or loaded for.

Good luck with your endeavor.
If it was me, I would shoot the original ammo, being careful to measure the velocity with a chronograph.
If the gun won't operate properly, the original ammo may have degraded some.
You might also consider having the gun stroked by an old-school gunsmith to be sure it will work safely.
The gun is a straight blow-back action, so you don't have to worry about gas pressure, but you do need
to keep the energy level within the bounds it was designed for.

---
Nemo

If you can avoid turning rims down; expanding, trimming to length, inside reaming and standard loading isn't to bad to make up a batch of cases. (When I make a batch of anything special, I make at least 50 and usually 100 or 200) If you can turn the rims, 30-30 WCF is cheap compared to the 9.3x 72 R. I never did this round as dies are a small fortune. For the limited shooting most would do with these guns, you might be better off buying a few boxes of the old ammo, and call it a day. Ivan

P.S. When I need to inside ream and trim to length, I do them in the same step with a Forester case trimmer with a ream bit instead of a pilot. (for this cartridge you could use .410" since you FL size after reaming). Being found slumped over my loading press would be one of the better ways to exit this life. Ivan

Take a look at the 30-30 Winchester, the 0.422 case diameter can be fireformed to the 0.429 diameter of the 401 WSL or you could expand it if you can find the proper tools at RCBS or Dillon. Length is plenty long enough to trim back to the 1.50 inch case length of the 401 WSL. The next aspect is that you'll need to cut down the larger rim diameter of the 30-30 to that of the 401, something that would be easiest to do in a lathe but in a pinch you could do it in a 1/2 inch drill with some sandpaper. The final aspect is the rim thickness, the 30-30 has a 0.060 inch rim thickness and the 401 WSL is listed as 0.050 in Wikipedia. this is a case where you may want to make up one sample and see if it will fit under the extractor on the Winchester, if so you are good to go with the 30-30 rim thickness. If not, it would be best to find a machine shop that would be willing to face off a batch or your cases for a moderate charge. The other option will be to sand the rear face down but that will take developing the skill to keep the rear face of the case flat while you sand it down.

Now, one note about fireforming. The 0.007 inch change in size isn't a huge amount and I don't think you'll see any cases split. However it could happen in one or two cases and the most likely consequence will be a case stuck in the chamber. I also expect that you'll see an area near the base that won't expand fully due to thickening of the case walls near the base. That I wouldn't worry about, the only way to address that is with an expand punch.

Other than that the 30-30 operates at a slightly higher pressure than the 401 WSL so a case head separation is highly unlikely as long as you don't try and re-use your fabricated cases too many times. Hint, if you see a depressed band about 5/16 inch above the base after firing that case has reached the point of failure due to stretch.

Now, for cutting the 30-30 down. Trying to do this with a case trimmer would take forever, just look at the difference in length. What I would suggest is to chuck the case in a 1/2 inch drill while spinning and then use a Dremel with a diamond cut off wheel to cut the case just a touch long while spinning the case in the case trimmer. Naturally, if you have a small lathe that would be an ideal solution. You may also need some bees wax to lubricate the cut off wheel because brass tends to stick to almost any grinding media. Time to cut one case, at a guess plan on about a minute per case. After that trimming to length should be relatively quick provided your cuts are fairly close. I'd set the goal for the as cut length at about 1/16 inch too long but if you can figure how to position the Dremel accurately enough you may be able to cut them closer.

Well as far as doing the trimming I am set there as I have a drill press that I use with a Lee cutter and shell holder set up to get it close. I can trim to the nuts with my RCBS.

The gun is in excellent condition. He shoots it off and on. It isn't a storage gun with unknown issues.

Need a good manual.

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If reloading is such a "time suck" then don't.

I enjoy reloading as much as I enjoy shooting or fishing. Reforming cases to a different caliber isn't normally difficult.

I'm kidding. I like it more than shooting. Especially tinkering with brass. Don't like casting. Drew the line not going there.

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There are some companies that make custom brass and ammo for old cartridges. I would do a search. Wont be cheap.

loaddata.com has some loads for the .401.

Yeah I was looking at some of that brass. I'm thinking If I can pick the most easily converted standard parent brass I can get set up to do my own. I'm kind of excited to try it. IMR4227 is listed as a good choice and I have plenty of that. It doesn't seem that the tapered case would be too difficult to form. I was reading about reforming bottleneck stuff and that looks more difficult. It seems like with the .401 the most difficult part is turning the semi rimmed case to spec. Might be a perfect time to find that old mini lathe my grandpa had. It's around here somewhere...

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George C. Nonte used to be a top authority on case conversions. I don't have his book(s) on the subject because they are a little pricey, but I have read some articles he'd written about it.

Other than that I'd find a good cheap copy of the Manual of Cartridge Conversions mentioned above and look around for a good candidate for conversion. (Their suggestions aren't always the only route)

Data won't be a problem, but you will need to be careful using published data in reformed cases as the internal dimensions may vary greatly from original cases. You will want to be sure to keep at least one of the ones your stepfather has for the purpose of comparing case capacity with any Frankenstein versions you create.

Or you can just order already loaded ammo:

401 WSL Ammo (Winchester Self Loading)|401 WSL Ammo

It looks like the Manual of Cartridge Conversions would be a good place to start. I am not sure my turret press is stout enough for forming. Might have to pick up a beefy single stage.

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I did plenty of forming and resizing of rifle cartridges on my 3-hole Lee turret press over the years, the limiting factor is the bench it's mounted to, and how it's mounted. The press itself is a lot stronger than you think!

I think the .401WSL is a neat cartridge, but its limits (and those of the rifle) must be respected. Holt Bodinson did an article on getting one shooting years ago in a Gun Digest annual, but I can't remember which one. As I recall, he got custom .406" bullets to 2000 fps, but his "normal" loads were a good bit tamer, to save wear and tear on the brass and the rifle. He called the 401 his "Blammer" because it has a unique sound signature, and all his hunting buddies knew when he pulled the trigger.

Just about any turret press in good condition will do this project, you are just expanding the forward case walls. If the 30-30 brass you use, has been used more than once I recommend you anneal it before expanding. I made a reforming press out of 1" all thread rod and 2-12" square inch thick plates. Had a machine shop drill the 1" holes, 1 inch from the corners and drill and tap a 7/8-14 hole in the center on one plate and 1 1/4 x 12 on the other (the 2 common die thread patterns). space plates apart in middle of rods with 1 nut on the inner face of each plate at each rod (8 total) have the spacing so bottle jack (2 ton or bigger) will have room to push up to a die threaded in the hole. Put 2 nuts on each rod on the outside of both plates (another 16 nuts). This is extremely strong, I used a 20 ton hydraulic jack for the last 30 plus years to press bearings, form cases and swadge down bullets. I used 1/2 x 1/8 pipe gas pipe bushings as blanks to make my own forming dies. They are soft and cheap! You may need to swadge down jacketed bullets from .410 to .406, if your dad's bore is in real good shape. If it is worn very much, you won't.

When you need to thin neck/case walls I prefer reaming to outside turning to keep the outside as smooth as possible. However when you get down to true thin necks around .010 in thickness forget reaming. A good neck turner is a necessity! Again I use the Forester case trimmer with the turning accessory and power it with a low speed drill or power screwdriver. It cuts going in and coming out and do 3 passes (total of 6 cuts) trying to keep the outside as smooth as possible. I mount the whole set-up in a 12" x 15" cake pan on a saw horse or work bench. The pan is like the bed of a lathe and catches most of the brass turnings (with practice you will be making you own "Brass Wool"). Ivan

Well that's good to know about the turret press. Thanks guys.

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I had a friend at work make me a set of tools to reform .30x39 brass
Heat the throat of the brass and form in three stages, to not overstress the brass
Traded for a set of .41mag tools that worked surprisingly well.
Talked to another friend at work (a big papermill) who is trying to make me
a set of tools to swag bullets from 9x20mm brass.

Oh my my, @ almost $50/box of 20 I wouldn't be shooting that rifle much.

I suggest contacting Buffalo Arms and see if they have .401 WSL brass available for sale.

I would also contact Winchester and see if they are planing on doing a special run of .401 WSL brass. Winchester usually does runs of out of favor cartridges every once and a while to keep their customers who bought those rifles happy. It's worth a try...

EDIT!
Well lookie here!
JAMISON INTERNATIONAL BRASS 401 WINCHESTER SELF LOADING UNPRIMED PER 50 ROUNDS
50 brand new pieces of .401 WSL brass in stock for $46.07

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SWCA #3437

Winchester hasn't drawn 401SL brass since before WWII. Back in the 80's B.E.L.L. Brass was suppose to make a batch of 401 Basic (same rim and diameter, but extra long and un-tapered). But they were bought out by PMC/El Dorado, before they got around to it. I still have a brochure from them saying "Coming Soon". As far as good loading Data is concerned, Lyman #45 (circa 1972) has an "Obsolete" section in the back, I know it has 351 SL, I think it has 401 SL also. There was also 32 SL also but it was so weak it disappeared quickly, when 351 SL was introduced. There is one cartridge in that family still around and going strong. That is 30 Carbine. All the praises and complaints for one apply to all: compact rifle, easy to handle, and a little underpowered. (All but the M-1 had too small magazine capacity for Military and police use, although 351's could be had with 10 round mags- Ohio prisons used alot of these). In WWI early Winchester SL rifles in 32 SL, were one of the first long guns used in air to air combat. Ivan

With this source available I would get my initial supply in the form of loaded ammo, then tool up for reloading (dies, etc).

I've been through several projects to keep some of my antique Winchester and Sharps rifles shooting, including cartridge case conversions. None are easy and none are inexpensive. In this case someone else has already done all the difficult parts, so I would take advantage.

I actually found a couple of places that sell the brass for a buck apiece. It seems like that case might hold up pretty well since it isn't a bottleneck and is not super high pressure. I found some spec order dies for 100 bucks. Perhaps a set of dies and 200 pieces of brass would keep my step dad functional. I don't see him shooting more than 1-200 rounds a year with that gun tops. Seems reasonable to expect 8-10 refills on that brass if it starts life new?

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Strength of bench is no issue...mine is quarter-sawn 4X12 old growth fir that is 10 feet long and as clear as Mother Teresa's conscience. I rescued it from an early 1900's building being torn down. If I pushed hard enough I am pretty sure the press or my bones would snap before the bench haha.

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Did you check the store I linked to above?
JAMISON INTERNATIONAL BRASS 401 WINCHESTER SELF LOADING UNPRIMED PER 50 ROUNDS
They seem to have a good supply of new brass at just a hair under a dollar a piece...

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SWCA #3437

I did I saw that after. Like it!

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Life span of your brass will depend on a number of factors. Nearly all modern (post WW2) brass will be of solid-head construction, while some older brass will be balloon-head (folded case head and rim) which has less inherent strength. Modern brass tends to be heavier in general, thicker heads and case walls, etc.

The .401WSL is a semi-auto so there is less latitude available for reloading. Loads will have to be fairly similar to factory spec to provide proper functioning in the semi-auto, so significantly reduced loads are not an option.

Straight wall case will require full length resizing to assure proper function, so partial resizing or neck resizing are not really an option for the semi-autos. Case necks will have to be flared for bullet seating and crimped after seating, and that is where I would expect the greatest amount of wear to occur due to repeated working of the brass.

I would watch two areas on the cases closely. The case mouths should be closely examined after every resizing, flaring, and crimping to check for cracking of the brass. Case walls just forward of the head (web area) can be checked with a caliper after each resizing (this area is not directly affected by the resizing die operation, but can tend to thicken due to displaced brass, so when case diameter at this area grows significantly over original spec the brass becomes suspect).

With moderate loads I would expect at least 8 to 10 reloads without difficulties. When one case within a batch starts to show problems (excessive case head expansion or mouth cracking) I would consider that entire batch suspect and discard them. When discarding brass I like to smash each with a hammer to prevent reuse by anyone else.

Well I found bullets and new brass thanks to folks here, and I found a set of 401 dies that weren't ridiculous in price. I have 2 suggested powders and a surprising amount of load data. Going to go that route for now and save the reforming for a later project. If the stuff gets here from the suppliers without a hitch my step dad will have quite a surprise under the christmas tree. Gotta figure out a way to check the rounds for function in his gun without him knowing. :P.

Appreciate all the insight.

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One more route to go: Dr. Ken Howell in his excellent "Designing and Forming CUSTOM CARTRIDGES for rifles and handguns" says all you need is .303 Savage brass and the proper RCBS form die set. Obviously at some point the Savage brass would have to be cut a little long to length and then trimmed to desired length after the forming and resizing. ............ Big Cholla

I want that book. But KRIKEY! They now want $90 for it @ Amazon? Sheesh.
I need a drink just thinking about that.
Edit: Huntington has it for $60

I might as well take this opportunity to remind the OP to use the absolute minimal bell-mouth when expanding the case.
Make it so the bullet will just get started and holds it's position.

Another cool tip I picked up from re-reading old Handloaders is to use a collet bullet puller
(if you have one) to seat bullets completely straight.
This works.
I have always had a problem getting cast bullets co-axially seated so they don't shave when starting them with my fingers.
This goes hand in hand with the first tip of minimal bell-mouthing.
Especially when I am using bullets bigger than a M die normally mouths for.
Just use the bullet puller backwards to start the bullet in about 1/3 the way and finish seating normally with the die.
This gets the bullets start-seated straighter than you could ever do by hand.

===
Nemo

Please ad some photos of the Winchester, i got one my self
but as this is your thread
You go first

I won't be able to get pics till this weekend feel free to post I wanna see

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Just a quick update to review Buffalo Arms, which is where I ordered a set of .401 WSL Redding dies and some 200 gr bullets...I ordered the stuff Monday morning (10/27/14) and it showed up at 3pm today. I got a shipping E-mail almost as soon as I ordered the stuff. Wow that was fast. It was just shipped Fed Ex ground cheapest nothing fancy. Only coming from Idaho but still a ton faster than I am used to. Just waiting for the brass coming from another place.

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Here is a pic of the old girl. Got all the components to start loading it. Having a little difficulty with the brass/bullet combo as the OAl wants to be 1.976 in order for the mouth of the brass to get in the canelure. Doing some more head scratching and reading.

Attached Images

CAM00589.jpg (75.6 KB, 105 views)

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Sweet

Ok, here we go. My gun.


Found a small box of Kynoch rounds, dont know if i should try to fire one of?

Wow I heard about propellant in long strands like that but never saw it before. Nice looking old .401. Really neat old guns.

That ammo you have might be worth more as a collectors item. I took one of the oruginal winchester rounds I have apart for bullet measuring etc. The powder was still smelling good and dry. The round I disassembled I have seen online for sale for over 10 bucks each:P.

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Although I've never owned a 401 I once had a neighbor years ago that worked for the Alaska Railroad. He had a 401 that he shot icicles off the water tower to keep them from braining someone. He did say it wasn't a good bear gun, the 405 Winchester was better.

I think the neatest thing about it is all the history even if it is a bit obscure. I don't think I'd want to take on a bear with it. It might work for black bear but I don't think it's mean enough for anything bigger.

I can see why prison guards and deer hunters would have liked it for closer work though. Even though it's heavy it comes to the shoulder quick and points nice. I haven't shot it yet but from the size and weight of the bolt and slide assembly I am guessing the recoil will be very manageable so second shots should be pretty easy to score.

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Are you having issues with feeding/chambering? My Lyman manuals show a max. COAL as 2.005"

Winchester think's that it was an exelent beargun

I make brass for my 1910 Winchester .401 from 7.62x39mm.
The rim dia is a little smaller than the factory spec 401,,but still gives enough of the semi-rim needed to headspace on.

It can be made from 35 Remington but requires the base right in front of the case rim to be trimmed a bit after forming.
The rim dia is OK,,right on spec w/ factory 401 ammo.

Never tried 30-30, but with the needed rim trimming again, I just find it easier to use the AK cartridge.

I load the rounds (size, decap expand and seat ) on a set of 41 magnum dies.

One extra die is needed to expand the bottleneck out straight on the 7.62x39,,,a tapered expander die.
For that I took an orphaned 45acp expander die,,an RCBS IIRC though it makes no difference. I tapered the blunt 45acp expander plug from .300 at the tip to .410+ at the upper end.
Since it's about .451 to start with,you can see about how much material needs to come off. The plug is soft, at least on the RCBS. Anneal if it isn't.
I did it on a lathe but in roughed out steps. Then smoothed the taper down with a file while spinning and then polished it.
It could just as easily be done with files with the plug spinning in a drill press (if the chuck will accept that dia piece)

The cases are given a spot of lube inside the neck and in one easy motion pushed into the expander die. They open up to .410 at the mouth and are left a bit wasp-waist looking in the center as the .410d of the plug doesn't reach down that far.
Haven't lost one yet in the one step expanding operation dispite warnings to the contrary from internet experts.

I anneal the upper portion of the case after the expaning operation.

Then on to a FL sizing & expanding in the 41 Mag dies.
I don't trim the 7.62x39 cases after expanding. They come out a bit under the 2.00+ trim to length, so I leave them at that.

I use lead 41Magnum pistol bullets still at .410 sized. Seated in the cases after expanding and loading w/4227powder.
The reformed rifle cases won't accept anything close to what the old loading charts list as Max loads because of the heavier const I guess.
A compressed load is given in the max load in the Lyman book I have.

The loaded rounds will have the slight thin waist look the first time but that will fire form and from there out will be a nice round case.
No need for the taper expander die use except to form the case the very first time. Just use the 41Mag dies for loading after that.

The loaded rounds chamber easily, at least in my rifle. I've used both RN and SWC designs.
I would NOT use any Jacketed .410d bullets w/o sizing them back down to .407/.408.
I'll get around to making a sizer die one of these days anyway.

A decent crimp on the bullet keeps things together through the cycling, recoil and handling.
Fun rifle to shoot, accurate and reliable.
Don't loose the magazine, they are terribly hard to find and expensive to buy.

Nonte's Home Guide to Cartridge Conversions uses 38/55 brass to make the .401. May be a moot point, as there are apparently more readily available donors.

How in the world did a .401 Winchester end up in Sweden, and why did Kynoch make ammo? It's a weird world!

Lyman Manual #45 lists the following:

200 gr. Jacketed (.406 to .407)

Unique Start 13.0 gr. for 1597 fps/Max 15.2 gr. for 1811 fps
2400 Start 22.0 gr. for 1718 fps/Max 24.7 gr. for 1915 fps

212 gr. cast

Unique Start 12.0 gr for 1618 fps/Max 14.9 gr for 1845 fps
2400 Start 21.0 gr for 1773 fps/Max 23.5 gr for 1960 fps
IMR 4227 Start 26.0 gr for 1915 fps/Max 29.0 gr for 2074 fps

240 gr. Cast

Unique Start 11.0 gr for 1470 fps/Max 13.7 gr for 1672 fps
2400 Start 20.0 gr for 1669 fps/Max 22.0 gr for 1818 fps
IMR 4227 Start 24.0 gr for 1506 fps/Max 27.5 gr for 1968 fps

NOTE: BOTH OF THE MAX LOADS OF IMR 4227 ARE COMPRESSED LOADS

I also checked the 41st Edition, but it has no data for the .401. At least these are all powders still in production.

You may be interested to know that Babe Ruth was known to have used a .401 for moose in Maine during his heyday. But then, the Bambino could have gone moose hunting with a Louisville Slugger.

I had one and a full box of Western factory ammo once. Never got around to shooting it. Got the gun in trade without a magazine and by the time I found one somebody offered me a sweetheart deal for the package.

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No issues feeding. The newer bullets are just shorter but the canelure is in a different place so it evens out. I just had to measure and do some math to make sure the capacity was the same and the powder wouldn't get sqiushed. It was okay.

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Nice find on the ad that's cool. Still not gonna go after a grizzley with it haha. I'll just make sure to be in the woods with someone I can outrun.

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Evidently the French and Russians bought quite a few around WWI. That's what I have read anyway.

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Another case that converts very easily to .401 is a somewhat odd one called the 414 Super Mag.
It's an extra long 41 Magnum that Elgin Gates designed. T/C and Dan Wesson chambered guns for it.,,maybe a couple of the short lived SA makers.
Starline makes the brass. Not exactly cheap,,but other than turning the rim down a little,,it's ready to go through the 41Mag or 401 dies for loading. No expanding necks or reducing bases.
Trim to Length may be needed ,but they are very close to the .401 case length IIRC.

I'd thought of using plain 41Mag brass with the rim turned down to the semi rim dia of the 401WSL,,sort of a .401 WSL Short.
It headspaced on that semi-rim anyway and the casemouth crimp holds the bullet in place,,so why wouldn't they work. Maybe they wouldn't feed?,,but that'd show up quick enough w/a couple of dummy rounds.
41Mag brass doesn't grow on trees either,,seems to be a pattern developing...
Oh well,,more time and effort into a relic of a rifle that does nothing more than shoots at targets and sticks on a dirt bank.
But it's fun.

Yeah I was looking at brick and mortar stores today and didn't see any 41 mag stuff there either. It does seem to be fading.

That's good to know about the .414 I might have to try that.

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Good places to find information on the supermags are

The Dan Wesson Forum
The Los Angeles Silhouette Club

The latter also is one of the best sources for cast bullet lore in one place there is.

----
Nemo

Sweet Nemo thank you

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It may be cheaper to bite the bullet (pun intended) and just buy some. A quick search on GB shows a few boxes for sale. You are going to pay $3 to $4 per round but still probably cheaper than buying dies, cases and whatever else is needed to make your own. Reloading is great fun but sometimes its just better to by old ammo.

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James Redfield
LM #497