Obsolete Cartridge Loading

I realize that I may lose my last fingernail hold on reality and can kiss anything like free time goodbye with this question but...

My stepfather has a .401 Winchester Self Loading, I believe it is a model 1910, that he can't find ammo for. Super cool rifle in excellent condition that his dad got around WWII. I've been poking around and it looks like brass can be reformed for this out of 7.62 X 39 brass. He has about 40 original cartridges but I told him not to shoot them they seem to have value as a collectors item.

I am looking at books about doing this sort of reforming. Any suggestions?

Like handloading standard cases wasn't enough of a time suck. Someday they'll just find me slumped over my press.

Cartridges of the World has that you can reform 35 Remington brass that work perfectly.

Nice. I'd really like to find a book with a good "how to" section. Does that book come with a section like that?

From "Handloader's Manual Of Cartridge Conversions":

Make from: 9.3 x 72R.
Turn rim to .457 dia. and back chamfer.
Cut case to 1.55 and taper expand to .410 dia.
Trim to length and size in .401 die with the expander removed.
I.D. neck ream. Chamfer and full length size.
Fireform in chamber.

You can see why this book is not known for the most straight forward methods.

Ammo Encyclopedia tells us the maximum average breech pressure is 35.5 KPSI.
They also show that the original brass has a long tapered cut leading down
to the rim that may be necessary for the operation of the gun.
This will most likely not be reproduce-able from other brass.
Bullet diameter is .407"
Winchester dropped the cartridge (and gun) in 1936.
It was considered barely passable for deer.
The 405 was much more powerful (1200 F-P more)

My Cartridges Of The World (4th) has no conversion advice but does offer a couple of reloads:
24 gr. of 2400 under a 200 gr bullet. 2010 fps (max load)
31 gr. of 4227 same bullet 2100 fps (approx fact. ball)
28 gr. of 4227 under a 250 gr bullet. 1880 fps (max load)

(This is roughly the performance of a 44 magnum cartridge in a carbine).

This seems to be one of the very few cartridges that Ken Waters never shot or loaded for.

Good luck with your endeavor.
If it was me, I would shoot the original ammo, being careful to measure the velocity with a chronograph.
If the gun won't operate properly, the original ammo may have degraded some.
You might also consider having the gun stroked by an old-school gunsmith to be sure it will work safely.
The gun is a straight blow-back action, so you don't have to worry about gas pressure, but you do need
to keep the energy level within the bounds it was designed for.

---
Nemo

If you can avoid turning rims down; expanding, trimming to length, inside reaming and standard loading isn't to bad to make up a batch of cases. (When I make a batch of anything special, I make at least 50 and usually 100 or 200) If you can turn the rims, 30-30 WCF is cheap compared to the 9.3x 72 R. I never did this round as dies are a small fortune. For the limited shooting most would do with these guns, you might be better off buying a few boxes of the old ammo, and call it a day. Ivan

P.S. When I need to inside ream and trim to length, I do them in the same step with a Forester case trimmer with a ream bit instead of a pilot. (for this cartridge you could use .410" since you FL size after reaming). Being found slumped over my loading press would be one of the better ways to exit this life. Ivan

Take a look at the 30-30 Winchester, the 0.422 case diameter can be fireformed to the 0.429 diameter of the 401 WSL or you could expand it if you can find the proper tools at RCBS or Dillon. Length is plenty long enough to trim back to the 1.50 inch case length of the 401 WSL. The next aspect is that you'll need to cut down the larger rim diameter of the 30-30 to that of the 401, something that would be easiest to do in a lathe but in a pinch you could do it in a 1/2 inch drill with some sandpaper. The final aspect is the rim thickness, the 30-30 has a 0.060 inch rim thickness and the 401 WSL is listed as 0.050 in Wikipedia. this is a case where you may want to make up one sample and see if it will fit under the extractor on the Winchester, if so you are good to go with the 30-30 rim thickness. If not, it would be best to find a machine shop that would be willing to face off a batch or your cases for a moderate charge. The other option will be to sand the rear face down but that will take developing the skill to keep the rear face of the case flat while you sand it down.

Now, one note about fireforming. The 0.007 inch change in size isn't a huge amount and I don't think you'll see any cases split. However it could happen in one or two cases and the most likely consequence will be a case stuck in the chamber. I also expect that you'll see an area near the base that won't expand fully due to thickening of the case walls near the base. That I wouldn't worry about, the only way to address that is with an expand punch.

Other than that the 30-30 operates at a slightly higher pressure than the 401 WSL so a case head separation is highly unlikely as long as you don't try and re-use your fabricated cases too many times. Hint, if you see a depressed band about 5/16 inch above the base after firing that case has reached the point of failure due to stretch.

Now, for cutting the 30-30 down. Trying to do this with a case trimmer would take forever, just look at the difference in length. What I would suggest is to chuck the case in a 1/2 inch drill while spinning and then use a Dremel with a diamond cut off wheel to cut the case just a touch long while spinning the case in the case trimmer. Naturally, if you have a small lathe that would be an ideal solution. You may also need some bees wax to lubricate the cut off wheel because brass tends to stick to almost any grinding media. Time to cut one case, at a guess plan on about a minute per case. After that trimming to length should be relatively quick provided your cuts are fairly close. I'd set the goal for the as cut length at about 1/16 inch too long but if you can figure how to position the Dremel accurately enough you may be able to cut them closer.

Well as far as doing the trimming I am set there as I have a drill press that I use with a Lee cutter and shell holder set up to get it close. I can trim to the nuts with my RCBS.

The gun is in excellent condition. He shoots it off and on. It isn't a storage gun with unknown issues.

Need a good manual.

If reloading is such a "time suck" then don't.

I enjoy reloading as much as I enjoy shooting or fishing. Reforming cases to a different caliber isn't normally difficult.

SMSgt said:

If reloading is such a "time suck" then don't,

Click to expand...

I'm kidding. I like it more than shooting. Especially tinkering with brass. Don't like casting. Drew the line not going there.

There are some companies that make custom brass and ammo for old cartridges. I would do a search. Wont be cheap.

loaddata.com has some loads for the .401.

ironhead7544 said:

There are some companies that make custom brass and ammo for old cartridges. I would do a search. Wont be cheap.

loaddata.com has some loads for the .401.

Click to expand...

Yeah I was looking at some of that brass. I'm thinking If I can pick the most easily converted standard parent brass I can get set up to do my own. I'm kind of excited to try it. IMR4227 is listed as a good choice and I have plenty of that. It doesn't seem that the tapered case would be too difficult to form. I was reading about reforming bottleneck stuff and that looks more difficult. It seems like with the .401 the most difficult part is turning the semi rimmed case to spec. Might be a perfect time to find that old mini lathe my grandpa had. It's around here somewhere...

George C. Nonte used to be a top authority on case conversions. I don't have his book(s) on the subject because they are a little pricey, but I have read some articles he'd written about it.

Other than that I'd find a good cheap copy of the Manual of Cartridge Conversions mentioned above and look around for a good candidate for conversion. (Their suggestions aren't always the only route)

Data won't be a problem, but you will need to be careful using published data in reformed cases as the internal dimensions may vary greatly from original cases. You will want to be sure to keep at least one of the ones your stepfather has for the purpose of comparing case capacity with any Frankenstein versions you create.

Or you can just order already loaded ammo:

401 WSL Ammo (Winchester Self Loading)|401 WSL Ammo

It looks like the Manual of Cartridge Conversions would be a good place to start. I am not sure my turret press is stout enough for forming. Might have to pick up a beefy single stage.

I did plenty of forming and resizing of rifle cartridges on my 3-hole Lee turret press over the years, the limiting factor is the bench it's mounted to, and how it's mounted. The press itself is a lot stronger than you think!

I think the .401WSL is a neat cartridge, but its limits (and those of the rifle) must be respected. Holt Bodinson did an article on getting one shooting years ago in a Gun Digest annual, but I can't remember which one. As I recall, he got custom .406" bullets to 2000 fps, but his "normal" loads were a good bit tamer, to save wear and tear on the brass and the rifle. He called the 401 his "Blammer" because it has a unique sound signature, and all his hunting buddies knew when he pulled the trigger.

Just about any turret press in good condition will do this project, you are just expanding the forward case walls. If the 30-30 brass you use, has been used more than once I recommend you anneal it before expanding. I made a reforming press out of 1" all thread rod and 2-12" square inch thick plates. Had a machine shop drill the 1" holes, 1 inch from the corners and drill and tap a 7/8-14 hole in the center on one plate and 1 1/4 x 12 on the other (the 2 common die thread patterns). space plates apart in middle of rods with 1 nut on the inner face of each plate at each rod (8 total) have the spacing so bottle jack (2 ton or bigger) will have room to push up to a die threaded in the hole. Put 2 nuts on each rod on the outside of both plates (another 16 nuts). This is extremely strong, I used a 20 ton hydraulic jack for the last 30 plus years to press bearings, form cases and swadge down bullets. I used 1/2 x 1/8 pipe gas pipe bushings as blanks to make my own forming dies. They are soft and cheap! You may need to swadge down jacketed bullets from .410 to .406, if your dad's bore is in real good shape. If it is worn very much, you won't.

When you need to thin neck/case walls I prefer reaming to outside turning to keep the outside as smooth as possible. However when you get down to true thin necks around .010 in thickness forget reaming. A good neck turner is a necessity! Again I use the Forester case trimmer with the turning accessory and power it with a low speed drill or power screwdriver. It cuts going in and coming out and do 3 passes (total of 6 cuts) trying to keep the outside as smooth as possible. I mount the whole set-up in a 12" x 15" cake pan on a saw horse or work bench. The pan is like the bed of a lathe and catches most of the brass turnings (with practice you will be making you own "Brass Wool"). Ivan

Well that's good to know about the turret press. Thanks guys.

I had a friend at work make me a set of tools to reform .30x39 brass
Heat the throat of the brass and form in three stages, to not overstress the brass
Traded for a set of .41mag tools that worked surprisingly well.
Talked to another friend at work (a big papermill) who is trying to make me
a set of tools to swag bullets from 9x20mm brass.

Cal44 said:

Or you can just order already loaded ammo:

401 WSL Ammo (Winchester Self Loading)|401 WSL Ammo

Click to expand...

Oh my my, @ almost $50/box of 20 I wouldn't be shooting that rifle much.

I suggest contacting Buffalo Arms and see if they have .401 WSL brass available for sale.

I would also contact Winchester and see if they are planing on doing a special run of .401 WSL brass. Winchester usually does runs of out of favor cartridges every once and a while to keep their customers who bought those rifles happy. It's worth a try...

EDIT!
Well lookie here!
JAMISON INTERNATIONAL BRASS 401 WINCHESTER SELF LOADING UNPRIMED PER 50 ROUNDS
50 brand new pieces of .401 WSL brass in stock for $46.07

Winchester hasn't drawn 401SL brass since before WWII. Back in the 80's B.E.L.L. Brass was suppose to make a batch of 401 Basic (same rim and diameter, but extra long and un-tapered). But they were bought out by PMC/El Dorado, before they got around to it. I still have a brochure from them saying "Coming Soon". As far as good loading Data is concerned, Lyman #45 (circa 1972) has an "Obsolete" section in the back, I know it has 351 SL, I think it has 401 SL also. There was also 32 SL also but it was so weak it disappeared quickly, when 351 SL was introduced. There is one cartridge in that family still around and going strong. That is 30 Carbine. All the praises and complaints for one apply to all: compact rifle, easy to handle, and a little underpowered. (All but the M-1 had too small magazine capacity for Military and police use, although 351's could be had with 10 round mags- Ohio prisons used alot of these). In WWI early Winchester SL rifles in 32 SL, were one of the first long guns used in air to air combat. Ivan