I'm looking for the "perfect" 44 Special load.
A 250 grain Keith type bullet at around 950 fps, accurate to at least 100 yards, no leading, relatively quiet and easy on the gun.
The problem is to find a commercial source of accurate cast bullets that are made with something close to the lyman #2 alloy. Most of the commercially available cast bullets are "hard", I think they're too hard for this project. I'm getting leading in the first inch of the barrel until these"hard" bullets get pushed to nearly 1100fps, then it goes away.
The Leadhead PM44-250 has given the best accuracy, especially when driven faster. 14.5 grains of Alliant 2400 @ 980fps is probably my favorite load with this bullet. 7.5 grains of Unique @ 920 fps and 8.5 grains of Longshot @ 930 fps are also very good loads.
The group shown below was shot at 100yards and includes a cylinder full of each of the above loads shot through my 5" 27-2 converted to 44 Special. I was surprised that the three loads all shot to the same point of Impact @ 100 yards.
What I'd like to get out of this thread are some sources for softer cast bullets and some ideas on different powders.

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Have you thought about trying some of the new coated bullets?

.44 MAG/SPL 240 Semi Wad Cutter - Coated - 1000ct - snscasting

Rim Rock Bullets make a real Keith bullet with a Brinell hardness of 10-12. Just what Elmer recommended. They are excellent.

Missouri Bullets offers the choice of 12 or 18 Brinell hardness

__________________
Dick

I shoot the 240gr RNFP Hi-Tek coated bullet from Missouri Bullet Company, with 6.5 grains of Unique.
It has a BHN of 12 and doesn't lead the bore. Shot in a Ruger Blackhawk 44 Special.

I've shot many one hole groups from 25yds, and always drive home with a smile on my face.

..

I'd be looking @ the coated bullets also.

They are softer than their traditional cast counterparts that they sell.

For what it's worth, matching bhn with velocities:
8bhn/40 to 1 ='s 800fps
9bhn/30 to 1 ='s 900fps
10bhn/20 to 1 ='s 1000fps

The bhn/hardness of a bullet can overlap, typical wheel weight alloy is 10bhn to 12bhn. Allot of casters use this alloy and then water drop them & get around 15bhn from the quench hardening.

The harder the alloy, the more precise the fit & powder pressures have to be, hence your statement I get leading the 1st inch of the bbl with the extremely hard commercial cast bullets.

Typical commercial coated bullets are in the 10bhn to 12bhn range. I depended on the alloy they started with. The coating process uses a oven to heat/bake/cure the coating. The coatings usually take around 10 minutes to cure @ around 375* to 410*. A by-product of this baking process is that it anneals the metals in the lead alloys (lead itself can't be annealed) making that alloy softer.

The win/win with coated bullets.
The coating will actually give you higher velocities that their traditional lubed counterparts. There's no leading with the coated bullets & the softer alloy expands/seals the cylinders & bore better allowing the user to have a wider range of velocities/pressures/velocities that provide accurate loads.

If you want to stick with the traditional lubed bullets Matt's bullets has some excellent choices for the 44spl. He will actually cast bullets with a 20 to 1 alloy (10bhn) specifically for the 44spl.

I see the loads you're using are towards the upper end for the 44spl. When I want something a little hot I'll use a 250g keith clone bullet paired with either 8.0g of powder pistol the old standard 10.0g of bluedot. I normally don't "hotrod" my 44spl loads, thast's why I have a couple 44mag's laying around, bbuuuuuuttttt, 16.0g of h110 will take that 250g bullet to the next level.

I used Coated bullets in my Charter arms. They are accurate and do not lead the bore. I do not shoot my 2.5" gun 100 yards much. The first box of 500 is gone.

Enjoy.

Hello akjaeger, I have been down a similar path.

In regards to lead bullets, it was recommended to me to try Oregon Trails Laser Cast 240 grain LSWCs. Yes, they are fairly hard, and yes they are bevel base. As was pointed out to me, for some reason they just work. They are pre-lubed and sized. I tumble-lube them with Lee liquid Alox lube as a precautionary measure. I get very little leading at 900-1000fps.

Any leading can usually be removed quickly with a brush dipped in turpentine. Yep, it really works. Shiloh Creek Bore solvent also does super at removing lead, and you can smell the turpentine in it.
Some revolvers just lead. Badly. Something to do with bore finishing I'd guess. If the leading builds up so fast it degrades accuracy, well, I'd switch to jacketed for that particular troublesome revolver.

Your load of 7.5 grains of Unique is a classic and works great for me. That said, I would hesitate to recommend it for anything other than healthy N-frame S&W .44 Specials, .44 Magnum handguns, or similar stoutly built revolvers. Just don't want someone hurting themselves and/or a nice old Colt SAA. Put me down as "cautious".

I've tried 231 and Power Pistol for equivalent loads, but in my experience Unique has the ever-so-slight edge. Your mileage may vary.

God Bless, Marc

My standard .44Special load is a Lyman 429421 with COWW plus 2% tin alloy at 250gr at .430" diameter lubed with SPG with 8.0 of Power Pistol. This is a standard pressure load according to Brian Pearce in Handloader and depending on barrel length will do 950-1,000fps. This is a very accurate load in my Specials and produces zero bore leading. A standby load is the old Skeeter Skelton load using Unique with the same bullet.

__________________
Stay safe people!

Thanks for the replies, lot's of interesting info.
I just got some of the Rimrock 260 grain Keith bullets, maybe try them today.

There's no set formula. It's going to vary according to bore & chamber throat dimensions and how closely the boolit is sized to the chamber throats. Most commercial boolits are too hard & too small to seal the throats.

It's pressure rather than velocity that causes the boolit to obturate.

Interesting - your results with Oregon Trail matches mine. I have had excellent accuracy in my Model 24's and a K-38. They are as good as flat base bullets. No other bevel base bullet that I've used (really!) will match their performance. I can only attribute it to the alloy they use. I have scratched my head on this, but they do work. So I buy 'em!

My favorite load for the 24-3 is 6.1 grains of Red Dot and Tennessee Valley Bullets 243 grain Keith.

.44 Harmony_zpspb4scqja.jpg Photo by SebagoSon | Photobucket

This load works well for me...



I don't load them in huge batches, but it's a joy to make every cartridge...

Similar to the Red Dot load, try 6.0-6.2 grains of Green Dot. Great load in my gun.

Marcruger
"Any leading can usually be removed quickly with a brush dipped in turpentine. Yep, it really works."

I tried this today and it worked great! I had two 44 specials cleaned in the time it normally takes for one. I'd never heard of using turpentine before.

No real luck with the Rimrock bullets, tried loads with 2400, Unique, Longshot and WW296. For such a good looking bullet they don't shoot in my guns. The Leadheads will consistently make six shot groups at 100 yards that I can cover with my hand, the Rimrocks won't even stay on on a B-27 target at that range, 3 or 4 within a foot and the other two clear off the paper! 50 yard groups were about 12" with all the powders and loads tried.
I'll try the Rimrocks in some full on magnum loads someday.

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I would really like to stay with the "Keith" design, so I ordered some 255 grain Keith SWC's from Matt's Bullets to try next.

The Skeeter load with 240/250 gr commercial bullets has worked well for me.

Try some gas check versions if leading is a problem.

Also Trail Boss powder. In the 44 Magnum, a max load with a 200 gr RNFP commercial bullet goes 950 fps with no leading from a 5.5 inch barrel. 1100 fps from a 20 inch with no leading.

Beautiful 5" 27-2/44 Special. Your groups at 100 yards are to be envied. Wish I had a recommendation to improve what I see displayed.

The Skeeter load with 7.5 gr Unique looks like a winner as-is.

Congratulations from one who wishes he could do as well!

Regards,

Dyson

Normally, leading at/near the beginning of the barrel is due to bullets too small and too hard. Every lead reloader needs to know a few dimensions; the groove diameter of their gun, the diameter of the cylinder throats, and the diameter of the bullet. The groove diameter must be smaller than the cylinder throat diameter, and the bullet is best matched to the cylinder throat diameter (example; my .44 Ruger has .430"-431" throat diameters to a .429" groove diameter. Bullets sized to .431"-.432" do not lead the barrel with a wide range of alloys/BHN). BHN takes a back seat to proper bullet-to-gun-fit. Find any one of the major casters that offer a range of diameters bullets per caliber and purchase one to fit your gun...

Thank you for the interesting take on the bhn/velocity. I found that it will hold water 99.9% of the time. I've always viewed lead by what a hp does or can do.

Something to think about:
If a lead bullet/hp can not fully expand than what makes anyone think it will obturate in the cylinders? Or if a hp bullet with too soft/low bhn/shatters, what makes anyone think that the bullet will not skid/deform in the cylinders or bbl throats.

A link from the 1950's showing velocities & bhn's for hp bullets in the 44psl. If you look at the pictures of the bullets not only will they show you what alloys expanded at what velocities and what alloys didn't you can also see some of the bullets bases didn't change/obturate.

http://www.goodrichfamilyassoc.org/4...20rifleman.pdf

Thru personal experience I've found that 10bhn wc/hbwc bullets don't seem to do so hot in the 44spl every time I tried to run them in the 750fps to 800fps range. And the same thing with 8bhn bullets when they get over 1000fps.

But every firearm's different. I just try to follow the trends that people figured out decades ago.

Good info, lot's to think about.
My chamber throats allow a .430 bullet to be pushed through with some effort. I'm shooting .430 bullets.
The leading in the first inch of the barrel is a secondary consideration to accuracy. I've found bullets that don't lead @ 950fps, just none that are accurate enough. The converted 27-2 has a .100 wide front sight, I want my groups to be smaller than the front sight width at all times. This translates into about 10" @ 100 yards. In theory, if it's wider than the front sight I can hit it.

I have had great luck with 6.0 to 6.5 grs of HP-38 under 240 to 255 cast bullets of various shapes. The 6.5 of HP-38 level pretty much duplicates the Skeeter Skelton load of 7.5 grs of Unique.

Mark in GA

Sounds like the bullet isn't obdurating, hence the leading.

I'd try some .431 if you can find or make them.

Might raise the pressure enough to make it work without leading and without hotrodding too much.

I worked up a 6.5g W231 load under a 429421 and find it just under the Skeeter load and more pleasant. Still hard hitting and accurate.

Gee, I wonder what happened to the perfect fit/.430 chambers with.430 bullets???

You're getting flame cutting, hence the having to use p+ pressures/velocities with your rock hard bullets to get them to seal properly. Also don't be afraid to buy bullets with gas checks on them. The gas checks will work even with the low 44spl velocities/speeds.

The 44spl is one of my 3 favorite calibers, been using/shooting it since the mid 80's and still use 2 different firearms chambered for the 44spl today. My other 2 "favorite" calibers are the 38spl & the 45acp. All of them are low pressure calibers with the 44spl having the lowest pressure of the 3. I've cast and swaged (swaged ='s lead and jacketed bullets) my own bullets for 30+ years now. And currently use/cast/swage these bullets for the 44spl:
265g swaged jacketed hp
200g wad cutter
220g hollow base wad cutter
200g hollow based field nose
200g "thompson" swc hp
220g "thompson" swc
250g "thompson swc
220g "keith" hollow base swc
245g "keith" hp (penta & round) swc
245g "keith" swc
250g "keith" swc
200g sire point
250g hp (penta & round) field nose
260g field nose
310g field nose

I use/cast 8bhn bullets with any of those molds to this day and don't have any problems with leading in either of my 44spls with loads that are from mild to wild. Started using a 8bhn alloy back in the 80's and have shot countless 1000's of them over the decades without any issues/leading.

Do yourself a huge favor and start looking for people that sell soft bullets (like matt's) or the powder coated bullets. The pc'ing process makes a soft bullet that flat out works. Or start casting your own, I roll my own so I can make/tailor bullets to my needs.

good luck

Forest r, thanks for the info I'll have to try some .431 bullets. I ordered some from Matt's, but I had them sized .430.
I really like the Lyman 429421 and I've started to gather up casting tools, just don't really have the time for another hobby.

There's nothing wrong with your .430 bullets, stick with them. It's the bullets hardness that's causing your problems. I was joking with jtcarm, about bullet fit. You actually have allot going on that is unique with the 44spl that can and will cause problems that other calibers/cartridges don't have to deal with.

The biggest issue with the 44spl is it's brass and it's pressure. I mentioned 3 low pressure cartridges in an earlier thread, the 44spl, the 38spl & the 45acp. Of the 3, the 44spl is allot harder to reload for, hands down.

The brass:
The 38spl & the 45acp uses 11/1000th's thick brass. The 44spl uses 12/1000th's thick brass. 2/1000th's doesn't sound like much but you were going to buy a bullet that's 1/1000th larger.

The max pressures:
The 44spl ='s 15,500psi
The 38spl ='s 17,000psi
The 45acp ='s 21,000psi

Here's what's truly going on:
You tested a .430 bullet in your cylinders and found that you had to push that bullet to get it to go all the way through the cylinder. That's a good cylinder/bullet fit. What you need to do is put a .430 bullet back in a cylinder and push it until you feel resistance and measure from the shoulder (.430) of the stuck bullet to the end of your cylinder. Now take a 44spl brass and put it in the same cylinder and measure from the end of the case to the end of the cylinder. Subtract the brass measurement from the bullet shoulder measurement. This will tell you how far that bullet has to travel (freebore) before it can seal anything with what's called a mechanical fit.

Mechanical fit ='s there's not enough pressure for bullet obturation so the bullet has to travel to the point in the cylinder where the cylinders tight enough to have the bullet mechanically seal it. Hence, the little dutch boy with his finger in the dike.

You pull the trigger and bang, the primer ignites the powder and pressure builds. You have what's known as a short start pressure, it's much lower than the peek pressure you get from a longer powder burn (as the bullet goes down the bbl). But it's enough to move the bullet forward and at the same time expand the brass outward. So you have the brass expand outward and seal the cylinder (soot marks on side of case ='s not good). In that mili-second the bullet moves forward and clears the case. The bullet at that point is 24/1000th's smaller in diameter (minimum) than the cylinder. The bullet either has to be soft enough to obturate/seal the cylinder or flame cutting will occur.

The 38spl only has 22/1000th's to seal and typical pressures are around 14,500 for target loads and 15,500+ for stand loads.

The 45acp also has only 22/1000th's to expand but the huge difference is the 45acp only has to travel around 20/1000th's of freebore and the base of the bullet will be in the bbl.

That's why revolver shooters get the "carbon ring" in their cylinders. You have burnt/burning gas at the base of the bullet with 20/1000th's+ difference in diameter when the bullet 1st leave the case.

A link about bullet alloy and obturation, very good reading.

Cast bullet alloy's and bullet obturation

For what it's worth, when Keith developed his loads/bullets for the 44spl. He thought 12 to 1 alloy or 12bhn (here we go again keith's 1200fps/12bhn, see a pattern here?) was extemely hard & that's what used. Another excellent link to the 44spl, it covers the bullets they designed, the changes they made and the alloys (bhn's) the people that designed the bullets used.

The .44 Special is renowned for being the source of Elmer Keith's inspiration, for giving rise to the .44 Magnum

At the end of the day you have the correct sized bullet, the problem is the bullet bhn that you're using. A 18bhn bullet takes 24,000spi to fully obturate and that aisn't going to happen in a 44spl. That's why you're not getting leading in the hotter loads. The hotter load is:
1. Expanding the bullet's base better (in the gap between the 24/1000th's space at the end of the case to the .430 shoulder point) that the lighter load.
2. The heavier load is getting the rock hard bullet through that same zone faster (faster ='s less time to flame cut).

Those are to excellent links and well worth reading. The both articles were written by a highly recommended lead bullet authority,author Glen E Fryxell.

Good luck and good reading. If you truly want to master your 44spl then repeat what the masters did and you will have their knowledge as a base to expand on.

An old beater snub nosed 44spl truck gun with 220g hbwc's turned around to make a huge hp. And one of my favorite plinkers, a 6 1/2" bbl's 624, I switch back and forth between iron sights and different reddots & scopes.



That 220g hbwc shot out of a snub nosed 44spl.

I guess Skeeter knew what he was doing…..
I loaded up some LazerCast 240 SWC's over 7.5 grains of Unique and a CCI 300 today. Thought they would make good plinkers since I'm running low on 2400.
No leading and plenty accurate, this is 3 shots @ 100 yards, fired from Elmer Keith's seated backrest position.

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Your eyes are better than mine! I shoot handguns at 100 yds every so often. I just can't see well enough with the iron sights to keep a decent group.

I am always frustrated and admittedly skeptical by reading "no leading", because with what I have seen the gun must be mechanically perfect and in sync with the bullet size, or lead will splatter at the forcing cone area, regardless of velocity, hardness, load, shape, or diameter.

p.s. Just read the excellent post from Forrest r and will consider the pressure levels involved with problem guns/loads. All my commercial bullets are harder, at least br12. My higher velocity bullets, now mostly coated, are br18. All guns that present a problem have adequate or reworked throat diameters, some with re-angled and smoothed forcing cones. Something else is going on then, when leading occurs around the forcing cone area.

I guess at this point, in terms of bullets I buy, everything will be coated. What remains is a potential puzzlement with any I cast myself, for which I am equipped but have never started.

I received some 255 grain Keith type SWC's from Matt's Bullet's today, they are sized .430 and are quite a bit softer than the leadheads or the lazercast. Matt said 10-12 BHN and I can mark them with a my thumb nail.
They look like excellent bullet's.
So, I loaded some up this afternoon. Shot about sixty rounds before the light started to fade. No leading at the 950fps level.
Best group was obtained with 8.8 grains of Longshot and WLP primers, 5 rounds into 2.5" @ 50 yards with one flyer….So I loaded 50 rounds of these for more testing.
This may well be the bullet I've been looking for. That's one of the things I like about this forum, the information available for the asking. I had never even heard of Matt's Bullet's before starting this thread.

I did some more shooting today with the bullets from Matt's. Had some time at mid-day and lot's of light so I hiked up to my range. I was really impressed with how well they shot. The best load for my gun was 8.8 grains of Longshot, WLP primers in Winchester brass. I didn't Chronograph them, but in the past this load has produced about 975fps with a 250 SWC.
At 50 yards I had some good groups, 3-4". With a center hold in the 6" bull of a NRA 100 yard Military rifle target they all stayed in the black, then I shot a cylinder full at a 10" white paper plate at the 100 yard line. 5 of the six rounds hit the plate with a center hold, the group was about 12". This was pretty interesting as all my other loads had been about 8" low @100 when sighted in @ 50. I shot a few rounds @ 25 yards, they were about 2" above point of aim.
I have a 10" gong @ 50 yards and another 10" gong @ 100 yards. A center hold gave me center hits on the 50 yard gong while a center hold gave me hits on the bottom half of the 100 yard gong. A slightly above center hold on the 100 yard gong gave me several strings with 4 hits out of 6 shots.
This is a really good performance for me.
Matt's bullets left very little leading, appears to be more of a smear of lube than a build up of lead. Accuracy didn't seem to degrade at all over 50 rounds.
I do believe this load will do anything I'd ask of a 44 special.
I'm gonna need a lot more of Matt's bullet's!

Thanks for sharing your results akjaeger. On an unrelated note, I wish I had a range like yours!

Be well

Good job!!!

You will find that the loads/pressures you keep finding that are the most accurate is the "zone" in which your revolver will perforn the best. That's an excellent alloy that matt's cast those bullets with. It's an extremely easy alloy to duplicate.

Duplicate ='s ww's (clip on wheel weight lead) or most outdoor range scrap lead + 2% tin.

I'd like to start casting some day, got a lead pot, a few molds and an old lubri-sizer. Just need to get started.