VV's N110 357 load data way compressed!

Shooter Magaven

Shooter Magaven

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So I finally got some N110. I went to their site for load data. Max for 158 jhp is 15.9 gr. Yeah right :rolleyes: I can barely seat the bullet. Its VERY commpressed. I loaded about 15 like this to try in my Rossi carbine. Then I read people are not using VV's data. Hornady's max is way lower and Sierra's is ~14.0 gr Max. (I think)
So what are the N110 vets using. Is VV's data safe?
Is 15.9 a Kaboom?
 
Shooter Magaven said:
So I finally got some N110. I went to their site for load data. Max for 158 jhp is 15.9 gr. Yeah right :rolleyes: I can barely seat the bullet. Its VERY commpressed. I loaded about 15 like this to try in my Rossi carbine. Then I read people are not using VV's data. Hornady's max is way lower and Sierra's is ~14.0 gr Max. (I think)
So what are the N110 vets using. Is VV's data safe?
Is 15.9 a Kaboom?
Click to expand...

I'd say its safe in their set-up.Thought starters : are you using the exact same bullet[brand] as well as the same brass as they did?
Where are you on case length - max/min. Obviously max would help the situation.
Are you setting the cannelure in the middle of the case mouth or a little lower.
Just my $0.02.
 
I use N110 in my revolvers(don't have a rifle). My Sierra data shows 14.0 for a max load, as you've indicated; Speer shows 15.0; Vihtavouri shows 15.5. I would check bullet, brass, and O.A. lengths as the other poster suggested. Of course bullet length would matter only if bullet mfgs vary the length behind the cannelure. I don't know if that is the case or not.

My data from VV shows them using a Speer JHP, with a C.O.A.L. of 1.575. They list the cases used as Lapuas trimmed to 1.283. Is that what you found also? That case length is ~.004 longer than my Starline cases -doubt if that would make all that much difference, though.

I'm afraid I'm not much help, sir. Pardon me for wasting a bit of your time.

Best wishes,
Andy
 
snowman said:
I use N110 in my revolvers(don't have a rifle). My Sierra data shows 14.0 for a max load, as you've indicated; Speer shows 15.0; Vihtavouri shows 15.5. I would check bullet, brass, and O.A. lengths as the other poster suggested. Of course bullet length would matter only if bullet mfgs vary the length behind the cannelure. I don't know if that is the case or not.

My data from VV shows them using a Speer JHP, with a C.O.A.L. of 1.575. They list the cases used as Lapuas trimmed to 1.283. Is that what you found also? That case length is ~.004 longer than my Starline cases -doubt if that would make all that much difference, though.

I'm afraid I'm not much help, sir. Pardon me for wasting a bit of your time.


Best wishes,
Andy
Click to expand...

Not at all, Andy. I'm using Nosler JHP .357 and Federal Brass trimmed to 1.288.
COL is 1.578 roll crimp to mid canlure.

So it would seem i have more case volume than vv does. Maybe the Nosler 158 gr has alot of length past the canalure than speer's :confused: I measured .370 from bullet base to mid canalure on the Nosler.

But the latest Vihtivuori data I have (their website) shows 15.9 max not 15.5.

Thanks
 
Anyone who starts loading a particular round at "max" has already violated the first principle of reloading.

Wonder if the OP every heard of "working up to" a max load?
 
Shooter Magaven said:
Maybe the Nosler 158 gr has alot of length past the canalure than speer's :confused:
Click to expand...

I have Speer and Nosler 158gr bullets. The cannelure on the Speer does start lower than the Nosler. The top of both is almost the same though. So if you seated to the start of the cannelure, there would be more case volume with the Speer. Additionally, the Speer bullet has a concave base while the Nosler is flat.

If you had two other sources of load data that were substantially lower maxes, and you are not even using the same bullet as this data, why did you think it would be safe to try? I don't mean to be a jerk, it just sounds a bit crazy...
 
SundownIII said:
Anyone who starts loading a particular round at "max" has already violated the first principle of reloading.

Wonder if the OP every heard of "working up to" a max load?
Click to expand...

Yes, I beleive the OP has heard of that.

Which is why the OP loaded 20 at VV's (the powder manufacturer) Minimum of load of 15.1 gr.
There warning : loads less than minimums shown are not recomended

As the OP doesn't have the luxury of stepping out back and trying them out, The OP loaded some to 15.5 gr. to take with him but noticed the load was already getting compressed. So the OP loaded some to max just to see how compressed their (Vihtavouri) max load would be. As noted the bullet would barely seat. Hence the question posted by the OP. Is this the load data or the OP's components ( i.e. case, bullet, oversight ...etc.) what are others experiencing...

The OP thanks you for your valuable input but it fails to contribute to the information that the OP was seeking.
 
aurora40 said:
I have Speer and Nosler 158gr bullets. The cannelure on the Speer does start lower than the Nosler. The top of both is almost the same though. So if you seated to the start of the cannelure, there would be more case volume with the Speer. Additionally, the Speer bullet has a concave base while the Nosler is flat.

If you had two other sources of load data that were substantially lower maxes, and you are not even using the same bullet as this data, why did you think it would be safe to try? I don't mean to be a jerk, it just sounds a bit crazy...
Click to expand...

That could explain alot. Thanks for that info.

I did not have 2 other sources showing lower numbers. It was only after I notice the % 100 case cap at > 15.1 gr. that I began to search the web for supporting data that I saw the references to the lower max charges by speer and sierra.
Crazy would have been to ignore all that, and head to range without getting on S&W forum, among others, and asking knowledgeable people such as yourself, if this is abnormally overcharged load.
 
Ok, nevermind the original question. Its getting off track with all the "comments".

New question: To those of you who have experience with VV's N110 in .357, are you using Vihtavouri's load data in your loads? If yes, then are you having issues seating the bullets due to compression of powder?

If no, then why not?

Thank you.
 
Last edited:
Shooter,

Your VV data is definitely more recent than mine -interesting that they upped the max. load several tenths.

I use 125gr. JHPs rather than 158s, and it just occurred to me that the powder level nearly reaches the base of the seated bullet. I use a 16.0gr charge, so I guess it's not surprising that a 15.9gr charge would be compressed by a 158gr bullet. But that of course does nothing to explain why VV would list such a load if the bullet will barely seat. Now I'm just sort of musing out loud.

I do not use VV's data, by the way. I use Sierra's, probably because the bullet I've been using is very close in configuration to Sierra's. That and I consulted with them prior to working up that load.

I just thought of one more possibility, but it's hard for me to imagine: is it possible that your brass has a thicker case head than the Lapuas used by VV??? If so your cases would have a smaller capacity and would create the compressed load. The only way to check that would be to take two empties of identical length(one a Lapua and one yours), and measure the depth of both from the mouth to the case head with the depth component on a caliper. Just a thought.

Andy
 
I don't think you are obligated....

I don't think you are obligated to use the cannelure on a bullet as long as you don't crimp the jacket. If it's THAT compressed it might need the cannelure to hold it in place!:confused: And you can compress the load in several stages. Press in, let it expand back out and press it again and let it expand out and press to final depth. Also trickling in powder slowly from a height will also pack it more densely. I'm not sure this will help because dense packing may not allow it to compress as much.

Truthfully, I don't have any real experience with compressed cartridge loads, but this an accumulation of things I learned over the years, some of it from working with granular carbon.
 
I believe the Viht load data uses CIP standards which is more than the 35K PSI of the SAAMI standard in the .357 Magnum.
 
Last edited:
fla_gun said:
I believe the Viht load data uses CIP standards which is more than the 35K PSI of the SAAMI standard in the .357 Magnum.
Click to expand...

I have heard this too. But they must also use shorter bullets and/or longer brass to get that much powder in a case :)
 
Shooter Magaven said:
I did not have 2 other sources showing lower numbers. It was only after I notice the % 100 case cap at > 15.1 gr. that I began to search the web for supporting data that I saw the references to the lower max charges by speer and sierra.
Crazy would have been to ignore all that, and head to range without getting on S&W forum, among others, and asking knowledgeable people such as yourself, if this is abnormally overcharged load.
Click to expand...

Fair enough. I think if I were not using the same brass, bullet, and primer, though, I would not shoot those.

If you have any of the brass they call for, you could try weighing one of the cases you are using, and one of the ones they call for. Then fill each to the rim with water and weigh them. It may be the bullets they use are a little shorter with a concave base, and the cases have a little more internal volume, so they are not a compressed load. Or at least not so compressed that it's difficult/impossible to seat the bullet.

Also, FYI, I'm not knowledgeable at all and have never used any VV powders. I guess I'm knowledgeable about the risks I am, and am not, willing to take though. I would pull those bullets if it were me, and load them up with some of the other, lower, load data. Then go shoot and have fun. I'm sure those lower loads will still be pretty stout. Then, depending on how that goes, maybe I'd try to gather some of the same components the VV data calls for, do some comparison, and decide if I wanted to try their top end data. :)
 
I tried some VV N110 years ago in .357 Magnum loadings. I started with Speer data for their 125 grain bullet and got pretty good results. The powder burned cleanly and muzzle flash was minimal. I switched bullets to Remington 125's, started my workup, and ran into heavy compression impeding bullet seating, with some nose deformation to boot. Bullet brand does have an effect, apparently, in just how the weight of the bullet is distributed. For example, does bullet "A" have a different ogive profile and larger hollow point than bullet "B", requiring an increase in the length of the bearing surface, thus total bullet length, to achieve the desired bullet weight? N110 is a great powder, but at the current pricing of $40 to $45 per pound (as I've found) it's just too cost-prohibitive for this humble shooter. Be cautious and trust your instinct.
 
I do not know if it is correct or not but.........
some time ago I read where "Ball" type powder should not be compressed.

If the powder is very fine, I usually fill to the base of the seated bullet. ( if safe )
You can find the line by placing the bullet ontop of an upside down case.........
take the total length.....and subtract the OAL from the larger number.
This will be your bullet seating depth.

I do compress a few Alliant powders if using a very short OAL on a few of my testing loads.

Good shooting.
 
Last edited:
Nevada Ed said:
I do not know if it is correct or not but.........
some time ago I read where "Ball" type powder should not be compressed.

If the powder is very fine, I usually fill to the base of the seated bullet. ( if safe )
You can find the line by placing the bullet ontop of an upside down case.........
take the total length.....and subtract the OAL from the larger number.
This will be your bullet seating depth.

I do compress a few Alliant powders if using a very short OAL on a few of my testing loads.

Good shooting.
Click to expand...

I never thought about doing that to get the seating depth. I used a dowl a few times though, but its a rough indication. Great idea... Thanks Nevada Ed :)
 
Upon further investigation, I came across some published load data that showed N110 compressed up to 110%. After some calculations I found that I was well below that so the amount of compression was not a concern for me in a 92' Style carbine.

I also acquired some Speer 158 gr JHPs (VV's bullet).

Tried them today. As it turns out, this load shot more accurate, with more velocity and cleaner than anything else I've tried so far. (1/2" @25yds, at 1800 f/s 16" bbl) I was pleased with the results.
My notes clearly state that this is a Rifle load only. My revolvers might handle it but the inevitable wear and tear is not worth it.

Thanks
 
Nevada Ed said:
I do not know if it is correct or not but.........
some time ago I read where "Ball" type powder should not be compressed.
Click to expand...



Ed,

Not sure if you were aware of it, but N110 is a stick powder. May be an unnecessary/inappropriate post on my part -disregard if that is the case.

Regards,
Andy
 
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