38/44 Load developement ?'s

I'm trying to find viable safe loads in 38/44 to shoot in my pre
Model 23 S&W Outdoorsman . I'm considering the following
powders for use with the Lyman 358429 bullet . I've 2 batches of
alloy , one is BHN 12 & the other is Lyman # 2 ( BHN 15 ) . Lube is
White Label Carnuba Red .
Alliant 2400 – I've settled on 12.0grs with this bullet as it's
accurate . Also tried 12.5grs but groups opened up & I doubt the few
extra FPS are worth the additional wear & tear . Burns clean with no
leading .
Alliant Unique – I've tried 6.5grs with this bullet , but groups are not
what I'm looking for . I'm thinking about trying 6.0grs to see if
accuracy improves . Know in years past that some have used
7.0grs , but these days that's pretty much 357 level & am not sure
that accuracy would improve .
Alliant Blue Dot – Haven't tried this one yet . Used to be this
powder would give excellent velocity / accuracy in 357 with less
pressure than other powders , but am not sure how it'll work in the
smaller 38 special cases . 6.5grs is max for std pressure 38 special &
8.3grs is starting 357 load ( Lyman data ) . I'm considering in the
neighborhood of 8.0grs with this bullet .
800X - Tried 7.5grs with this bullet & accuracy was as good as the 12.0gr 2400 load . Ironic as also tried 8.2grs in 357 from my 586-0 & it was too hot for that gun . Flattened primers & case head impression from firing pin bushing . Yes it doesn't meter & you have to weigh each charge , but it's cheap & readily available .
IMR 4756 – still have some . I know this powder does not like to be
crowded . Was thinking somewhere around 7.0grs with this bullet .
IMR 4227 – I'm thinking this will be too slow to get a good burn in a
38 case . Older data does show its use in 38 though .
W 296 / H 110 – same deal as 4227 as it needs around 30K pressure
to start to work well & supposedly has detonation problems @ lower
pressures . Probably just keep this for 357 & 41 mag loads .
HS-6 – never used this before but was gifted a lb. There are those
who swear by this in 38+P & it has me thinking . 6.4grs is max std
pressure 38 load & was considering around 8.0grs with this bullet .
VVN-340 – tried 6.7grs with this bullet . Accuracy was just fair & I
think this one will run out of legs before I get what I want .
VVN-350 – I'm thinking this might be suitable as it has its fans for
use in 357 . Was considering 6.8 – 7.0grs with this bullet .
VVN-105 – this one too has its fans in 357 with heavier bullets .
Was considering in the range of 8.4 – 9.3 grs with this bullet .
VVN-110 – many consider this a great powder in 357 pretty much
in line with 2400 . Was considering somewhere around 11.5grs with
this bullet .
While these type loads have been around & been shot in the S&W
Outdoorsman for a long time , I don't want to damage a fine old
revolver or lose any body parts . While 12.0grs of 2400 with this
bullet does everything I want , I'd also like a couple of default loads
when 2400 is not available .
Pressure limits are lower these days & I doubt that guns have
gotten weaker . SAAMI std 38 special is 17,000 psi , +P is 20,000
psi , CIP std 38 special is 21,750 psi . SAAMI 357 pressure limit is
35,000 psi & CIP 357 limit is 43,500 psi . Surely there are loads in
the range of 26,000 to 28,000 psi that will give the results I'm
looking for . BTW these will ONLY be shot in my Outdoorsman .
I'm sure that others have had similar thoughts & have probably
done this before . Suggestions , advice etc. gratefully accepted .
There's a wealth of knowledge here that I'd love to tap . What say
you gentlemen ?

My favorite load for my 38/44 Outdoorsman is similar to yours... 11.0 to 12.0 grains of 2400 under a 158 grain hard cast LSWC with a Federal 200 Magnum Primer.

One difference though, regardless of caliber, bullet design, velocity, etc. I've never shot a hard cast lead bullet of any make, in any of my handguns, that didn't leave some leading. Mr. Lewis' Lead Remover continues to attest to that fact.

Well I'm using a softer alloy than most commercial cast , not to mention a much better lube . I'm also using Fed 100 primers . Maybe I'm lucky but bullets are sized to cylinder throats . Everything I've shot so far has been with the BHN 12 alloy .

boatbum101 said:

Well I'm using a softer alloy than most commercial cast , not to mention a much better lube . I'm also using Fed 100 primers . Maybe I'm lucky but bullets are sized to cylinder throats . Everything I've shot so far has been with the BHN 12 alloy .

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In my experience I've found all barrels will lead to some degree.

As for a better lube, I don't know since I don't cast my own lead bullets. However, I do trust that Meister, Missouri Bullet Company, and X-Treme are using very good lubes and if a better one was available they'd be using it.

Early on in my hand loading history I tried some big name swaged lead bullets in my 38 Special loads. At 800-850 fps 158 grain swaged SWC bullets smeared lead down the barrels of my 38/357 S&W revolvers and my Colt Python.

I've loaded well over 60,000 rounds of BHN 18+ hard cast H&G #68 bullets at 900+ fps in 1911 pistols with Colt Gold Cup, Ed Brown, Wilson, and Bar-Sto barrels. At this hardness number the fouling is lead shavings or slivers rather than the smearing of lead.

The powder and primer used can effect leading. I've noticed fast (hot) burning powder like Bullseye, Titegroup, etc. seem to produce more leading than HP38, W231 or Unique. However I've seen no discernible difference in leading between standard and magnum primers.

Those unique loads are just medium pressure loads........

I have an old 1987 Hercules data sheet that has Unique at........
1385fps with 36,500 cup with a 158 gr. LRN bullet.

This load in my 686 6" L frame gets 1320 fps and at 15 yards is at POA.

Unique at just 6.6grs is a nice target load at 1133 fps.

If using 6.0grs or less, I would opt out for the 38 special case since these light loads with the 357 mag case did not do well in my 6" barrel.

Good shooting.

Sounds like your really putting together a test battery to keep you busy for the next few months.

Leading is a perennial issue with all traditional lubes.
It may accumulate slowly, but it does accumulate no matter what you do.
For that, I have entirely transitioned to coatings rather than lube.
You might do the same, as it would eliminate the leading issue from any and all loads you wish to try.

4227 being too slow .... your probably right. It'll leave unburned powder kernels behind. it even does this in the magnums.
However, it's worth trying anyhow due to the accuracy it has produced in 357. You might deem it worth putting up with if it gives you the goods.

OK seems we're getting sidetracked here . For the record the gun is a pre 23 Outdoorsman chambered in 38 special so 357 cases are out . Bullet weight is 173gr not 158 . What quite a few fail to grasp is that the harder the alloy the more important bullet " fit " & the quality of lube used becomes . If one is of the opinion that a commercial caster uses the best lube & alloys , we'll just have to disagree . As a long time 2700 ( Bullseye ) shooter I too have sent many lead bullets both cast & swaged down range . Since we shoot for score our loads very rarely exceed 780fps in 45 acp . Vast majority are closer to 700 fps for swaged , cast has to be pushed a little faster to group @ 50yds . So I can't comment on 45 acp loads in excess of 900fps . If your bullets lead & are sized correctly try tumble lubing with 45% liquid alox , 45% beeswax & 10% mineral spirits . All it takes is a thin coat . Try it one time & you'll become a believer . Check out the Castboolits Forum a virtual treasure trove of cast bullet knowledge that actually works .

Not at all confused.
The discussion is 38/44 which is essentially 38 special +P+
This one encroaches on 357 magnum territory and thus, may treat 4227 much the same.
it's worth trying.

"Bullet weight is 173gr not 158 ."
I am unaware of any factory .38-44 ammunition which used such a heavy bullet. So what muzzle velocity do you wish to achieve?

I'd suggest you might try AA#5 (if you have any available) in the 7.0 to 8.0 grain range and see what happens.

It's the Keith designed bullet 358429 . I've seen velocities for the 1930's 38/44 High Speed ammo listed as 1150 - 1250fps . This is from a 6 1/2" barrel . Only AA#5 data with this bullet I've found is 5.1grs max std press 38 special . Only AA powder I have on hand is # 9 .

There was a member a few years ago that had a long thread on his experiences loading 38-44s. Peter something (I think).If it comes to me,I'll post it.

boatbum101 said:

It's the Keith designed bullet 358429 . I've seen velocities for the 1930's 38/44 High Speed ammo listed as 1150 - 1250fps . This is from a 6 1/2" barrel . Only AA#5 data with this bullet I've found is 5.1grs max std press 38 special . Only AA powder I have on hand is # 9 .

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familiar with it. I have a HP variant of it

Yup 358439 is the HP version . 13.5grs 2400 with the HP bullet is extremely effective on all kinds of 4 legged varmits . I suspect it'd be pretty much the same on two legged ones also .

The original powder used to load the 38/44 were Unique and 2400 but then again there weren't many to choose from back then. I'm sure the starting charge weight of a .357 Magnum load in the .38 Special case would make a proper 38/44 round. I would use my favorite medium speed powder like HS-6.

Arjay the mans username here is Peter M. Eick ( which is probably his real name . Thanks for the memory jog . I just reread all his posts about .38-44 loads / ammo . He came up with a box of Remington 1940's vintage .38-44 ammo & shot it over his Oehler 35P chrono . Velocities were : 1198fps from a 6 1/2" , 1131fps from a 5" & 1069fps from a 4" . All 3 guns are 38/44 Heavy Duty's . He did also list some test results that stated Herco , 2400 , SR4756 , Longshot will get one there . Unique will too , but he stated he did not like pressure signs with 6.5grs . Alright now I'm getting somewhere .

If you really want to "get somewhere" in your quest for 38/44 load
data in revolvers rather than test barrels and the opinions of armchair
experts, your answers are easily found. As they say, "you just have to
know where to look." Research back issues of Handloader magazine
and you will find a few excellent articles by writers Brian Pearce, Mike
Venturino and others. Why come on here and make a big issue of
your need for information when all you have to do is a little digging
of your own?

per post #6;

IMR4227 is a very SLOW powder for the 357 but it can be used.
I have loaded 38 cases with 11.0C grs with a 158gr lswc bullet and with my 686 6" received 888 fps.
The bad part is that this can be matched with just 4.0 grs of Red Dot.

In a 357 mag case and the same bullet I did get a very accurate target load with just 12.0 grs of powder at 976 fps that printed 6 @ .63" behind my chrony at 12 feet and at POA.
However you can get the same fps with 5.0 grs of Green Dot if you have some.

ArchAngelCD said:

The original powder used to load the 38/44 were Unique and 2400

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This is not correct, at least the 2400 part! The .38-44 was developed ca. 1929, and 2400 was developed for the .357 Magnum ca. 1934-35. The most likely powder used was actually SR-80, which has no direct modern equivalent. Read Keith and Phil Sharpe and you will see why I say this! SR-80 did not survive WWII if it even made it to 1940!

As in many handloading issues a chronograph is your best friend. You
should have a good idea of the velocity you expect to achieve with
38/44 loads so pick a few powders that you know to be in the correct
burning rate range and start loading. Start with +P data if available
and work up from there until you see your target velocity. I'm sure you
can find suitable loads with 3-4 different powders which surely would
be enough. Don't fall into the trap of searching for that one "perfect"
load.

I agree with a chronograph being a great tool . BTW I pulled the trigger on an Oehler 35P to replace my older Chrony . Also got some +P cases from Starline . My 2400 load works just fine , but I'd like a couple more in case I can't find any . Learned that my time is better spent learning to shoot a gun rather the look for the perfect load .