Hello! I haven't visited these forums in quite a while......hope everyone is doin OK. I'm working on getting my CCW permit & I'll be using my S&W 640 w/1-7/8" barrel. I'm using Speer's .38SPL+P Short Barrel ammo with their 135GR Gold Dot HP projectile, but I'd like to put together a handload that comes close in weight & velocity for economical practice. I bought some 140GR Hornady XTPs & I've ordered some 140GR Round Flat Point lead bullets from Montana Bullets. I'm using Accurate #2, but I've got some Power Pistol. Can anyone suggest some other powders that'll give good velocity with this short a barrel & these light bullets? I'll appreciate the help, and thanx. jd45

You don't need +P ammo to get a CCW with the ammo for your test/instruction time.

They don't care what you use for SD use.................
just that you pass the test !!!!!

Get a nice load that you can handle and pay attention and you should do well.


If they want +P ammo........
that 140gr XTP will match the 135 SB Speer factory load in a snub nose with.........
Red Dot at around 838 fps and will print at POA.

Green Dot, w231 and Unique will also work. Sorry but I have
yet to test CFE and HS-6 powders.

as a note;
4.2grs of Red Dot with a cci primer with the 140 Xtp hits around 734 fps
that is a GREAT practice load.


Tight groups.

Thanx for the tips Ed. After hearing about CFE I went to Hodgdon's site & saw impressive velocities for .45 Colt with 250 LRNs, which I also load for. I do also have some HS-6 but looking at a burn rate chart, I didn't think it would be a good candidate for my short barrel. I will try these powders you mentioned. Thanx again, jd45

[QUOTE=Nevada Ed;138925153]You don't need +P ammo to get a CCW with the ammo for your test/instruction time.

They don't care what you use for SD use.................
just that you pass the test !!!!!

Get a nice load that you can handle and pay attention and you should do well.


If they want +P ammo........
that 140gr XTP will match the 135 SB Speer factory load in a snub nose with.........
Red Dot at around 838 fps and will print at POA.

Green Dot, w231 and Unique will also work. Sorry but I have
yet to test CFE and HS-6 powders.

as a note;
4.2grs of Red Dot with a cci vprimer with the 140 Xtp hits around 734 fps
that is a GREAT practice load.


Tight groups.[/QUOTE
Good post, I would go with a lower powered load as most target ammo is low powered. Even load some full wad cutters.
BULLSEYE would be probably the best powder for the .38 if you can find it.
I know with my 637 full wad cutters work well and easy to manage in .38 spc.

Ditto on Bullseye. The classic 148 gr. wadcutter load with 2.7-3.0 grs. Bullseye is very mild and accurate. At relatively close ranges such as you will be shooting at your CCW course they will hit to just about the same POA (point of aim) as your 135 Speer +P short barrel Gold Dot load.

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USAF, 69-92
Vietnam, 72-73

sarg1c, thanx,.........I saw a load posted on handloads.com using Bullseye, (max 5.5grs) & a 140gr bullet out of a Taurus 2", which the poster said was actually a +P+ load. I don't need that stiff a load even tho my gun can handle it, (the 1st Gen of these 640s was laser-engraved +P+ in the bottom of the cylinder window), but I do intend to se if I can get some somewhere. jd45

jd45,
You might be able to find some of those +P+ rounds floating around. But, bear in mind that although they might have somewhat increased velocity, they won't have newer technology bullets like the Gold Dot. The Gold Dots and a few others (XTP?) are considered by many to be more effective, and the lighter recoiling +P rounds permit faster followup shots as well.

Winchester made one of those 110 +P+ loads in its Ranger line, using the exposed lead tip JHP bullet. That bullet is still used by Winchester in its bargain white box 125+P "Personal Protection" load.

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USAF, 69-92
Vietnam, 72-73

All my J frames shoot more accurately (30') with a light loaded 140gr. FMJ.
Unique and 231 being the most favored powder.

I have been experimenting with light loads for our J frames. We are using fast powders (Hodgdon Clays 3.0-3.4g) and Hornady 110g JHPs.

My daughter can shoot these all day with her J frame 442.

I won't be running +P+ loads thru my 640....I don't think they're needed for SD. My focus as I said is coming as close to the Speer load as I can. I realize I can use a mild load to do the test with, so the light-loaded 140s accuracy appeals to me. As far as using 110s goes, I have serious doubts they'd get to a perp's vitals & stop the fight, tho I might use those for a light target load. Thanx for all the help guys,......more feedback is also welcome. jd45

A test shooting test for a CCW?? Ohhhhh You are in Chicago.

If they do not care what ammo, just the gun then just load some light target loads with HP 38 or Bullseye and a light bullet. Just get something accurate.

Power Pistol is great for actual wam bam SD loads, it is very LOAD report powder but it was a factory load powder for many years it was known as BE 84

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Still Running Against the Wind

I have tried the Winchester 110 SJHP old style in my snub nose
and the faster you shoot it the quicker it opens up.

Went from 702 up to 996 fps and did not get the penetration or the expansion that I wanted in my test.

I will be doing one final test with the Hornady Xtp JHP bullet at
950 fps for my final try for deep penetration and at least an expansion dia. of .45".
If this does not pan out I will write off the little 110gr bullet to
SD use and tag it as a bullet for target use.

So far the only 110gr that works is the DPX Copper bullet.

I like AA#2 in 38 Special. It gives me less velocity differences, isn't position sensitive, and good velocity. Some powders I've tried seems to be position sensitive meaning if all the powder is forward against the bullet it gives different velocity than powder next to the primer. I like 110-125 grain bullets in my .38 loads but lots use heavier bullets for target and self-defense. My Accurate Arms data for AA#2 gives as much velocity in short barrels as does a slower powder like Unique.

Ed, what you said about the 110s opening quicker the faster you drive them goes to my suspicion about them not being a good projectile for an SD load, namely quicker opening works against penetration. rg1, thanx for the info on ACC#2. My data goes from 4.2grs to 4.7grs with a 140gr bullet. jd45

Do you want ammo to "qualify" pass your "test" with or SD ammo??

Two different animals.

For your CCW it makes no difference what you use as long as it is accurate. You can test SD loads later.

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Still Running Against the Wind

With such a short barrel, I would think you'd want to use the fastest powder you have/can get, regardless of whether you're looking to load mild target ammo or carry ammo.

Rule3 & njl, I agree with both of you., and I'm searching for some Bullseye to do double duty for target & SD loads. Thanx, jd45

I use two loads in my 642. 148gr wadcutters over Trailboss at 600 fps. This is a good practice load and I shoot at least 50 a week. I also load 158 gr XTP over Power Pistol for a carry load. I use the book load out of the Hornady manual and was surprised to find it chrono's 925 fps from my 642 and 950 fps from my 4" model 15. This is about as much recoil as I can handle in the 642. I prefer the heavier bullets in carry loads.

In this time of little or no powder on the dealers shelves, I made up this list of suitable powders for 38 special and 9mm and carry it in my wallet just in case I find some powder. These are the faster powders and are suitable for shorter barrels.

Tightgroup
700X
231
Bullseye
Red Dot
Acc #5
Unique
Universal
N340
N350
Power Pistol

Good luck in the powder search.
Gary

I disagree with faster powders for SD. REGARDLESS of barrel length the powders that give the highest velocity in longer barrels will do so in short barrels which are slower powders than BE or TG.

Slower powders will give you the most velocity for SD loads. They also give more blast and flash. Magnum powders are slow powders for a reason. Look at the data, get a chronograph.

Topic has been beaten till the horse is deader than dead

THE FBI or BB load can be duplicated. I have shot these out of a alloy framed +P 642 and they are brutal. They are pretty bad in a 640 also.

Duplicating Buffalo Bore FBI Load

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Still Running Against the Wind

I use 5.0 gr WW 231 with a 125 Rainier HP in my Airweight. Accurate and the recoil isn't bad at all. I carry this so I almost always take it to the range and run 20-30 rds through it. Never a hiccup. Son ran some old SuperVel through it and just said one word. Brutal.

Been reloading for 35+ years now and for the first 20 I used Bullseye Powder for .38 Specials. Switched over to Titegroup about 15 years ago and that is still what I am using. The Titegroup seems a little cleaner than the Bullseye and meters almost the same. Works for me.

I have done quite a bit of load testing from S&W snubbies. I have a 638 and a 438. If you are trying to match factory +P loads, Power Pistol is the powder you want. If you are after rounds for plinking or target practice, Bullseye is a great choice. I did my testing with 125 grain projectiles, but I am sure the results will be similar with heavier bullets.

Mike

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NRA Certified Pistol Inst.

Final note;

If you don't need +P for your test.............

the 148gr BB or HBwc will be your best light weight load for the shooting. Low recoil and usually very accurate.

A 125gr lead or 110 JHp at standard loads is a second option for target ammo if you reload, if they are accurate enough.

Good luck.

Necessity made me try Red Dot. I liked it right out of the gate. I think the more energetic medium burning powders are best in these guns. Slower powders are..well.....too slow.

I find Titegroup is pretty versatile for a 'target' powder and can get higher velocities, but many don't like the risk of doing a double load and blowing up their gun, or their hands or anything else. 'Bullseye' is a about the same, IF you can find it.

For practice bullets, a similar weight hard cast bullet (I prefer coated) can be driven just like a jacketed bullet, and usually with less powder and they are pretty cheap to boot. Ain't no way I can afford to shoot expensive components for practice.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Apologize for a slight drift but there seemed to be a lot of focus on rounds for CHL license in the discussion.

So now you made me go looking with no absolute result. I scanned through a dozen or so CHL course providers in Texas and all seem to have a requirement of factory ammo. However, I couldn't find that as an actual State requirement, perhaps up to the instructor. Again, random curiosity....

I just got a 38 for Christmas and am interested in the rest of the discussion

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Really? U saw it in Wikipedia?

I developed a replica load for the Speer 135gr ammo with the help of the Speer tech's. The powder they recommended was AA#5 for the .38 Special +P and I can tell you, it worked very well. I used the 140gr XTP bullet because they cost a lot less than the Speer bullets are were available.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

I carry my M642 with the Speer 135gr Short Barrel and use 125gr plated bullets over 5.0 gr of HP38 for practice. Shoots close enough to point of aim for practice ammo at about $0.16 per round, instead of a buck and a half for the carry stuff. I shoot about 100 rounds a month at the range. Similar to post #21.

Best,
Rick

I have an update for you guys. I and my brother have successfully completed the course for our CCW permits. I used ammo I assembled with a 140gr lead round flatpoint over 4.2grs Accurate #2. 10 rounds each @ 5yds; 7 yds; & 10yds. Minimum 21 hits required to pass. After we were finished I fired another load of 140gr Hornady XTPs over 6.5grs PowerPistol. This is a +P load, stout but accurate.....could be my carry load, tho I will try others you guys suggested. Thanx for all your suggestions. BTW, the gun is a DAO 640 w/Crimson Trace laser grips & it's right on the money from point blank out to 50ft, as long as I do my part. jd45

Titegroup is similar to Bullseye in a fast powder and gets pretty good velocities up to a point. Just weigh a lot while loading and be careful not to overload with either of these powders as they spike very rapidly in pressure.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

I would not use Power Pistol for a carry load. The excessive flash it produces will be hard to overcome at night. There are several low flash powders out there not that are better choices. AA#5 isn't a bad choice either.

Congratulations on passing your CCW course.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

Thanx for the tip ArchAngelCD, as this is a serious concern shooting in low light. And as I mentioned previously, I do have #5 along with the 2; 7; & 9. Mind mentioning a couple of those LF powders? Thanx, jd45
P.S.....Maybe I should look at that Accurate #5 you were advised to use by the Speer Tech in your duplication load, which BTW, I was looking to accomplish to begin with?

Why don't you just pull one of the Speer 135's apart and weight the powder charge on our scale ? That will give you a starting point

I use the Speer Gold Dot 135+P SB for carry, in both my 3" M65-3, & my 2.125" M640-1.

Due to the price of this factory fodder, I don't shoot a lot of it - but have found that Dardas 158LSWCs, over 3.6 grains of TiteGroup, WWSP primers, in .357 BRASS, makes a very accurate (a bit better then the 135 Gold Dots, in fact), equivalent target load.

In .38SPL brass, Dardas 158LSWCs, over 3.2 grains of TiteGroup, WWSP primers, seems to be the magic number.

I'm stocked up w/ W231, Unique, VV-N320, VV-N330, & Power Pistol, but the TiteGroup load works so well for target, that I've pretty much quit further experimentation.

That said, I've got an M&P 340 on the ol' bucket list, & if acquired, will probably try to work up a similar target load - utilizing an Xtreme plated bullet. Reason being, I think that residue cleanup from a plated bullet load "might" be a little easier on the alloy revolver's factory coating.

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Regards - GCF