Stareline 45 Cowboy Special Brass.

Erich · Feb 19, 2016

alwslate said:
The Howell cylinders seem to be pretty popular and are sold
by several different companies. Reviews seem to be mostly
positive but some guns do not accept the cylinders without
some fitting. The good news is that they are now also being
made in .45 acp. I haven't been able to find any details
about them yet but the answers could surely be found by
contacting the company. Has to be a good thing though
because I hit the link above and saw the price for the CS
brass. Ouch!

I knew they were available in .45 ACP in the past, but I haven't seen any for sale in that chambering lately (and they were not available any longer in .45 AC) when I bought my .45 Colt cylinder a few years ago). Does anyone know if they've been brought back?

Erich · Feb 19, 2016

2152hq said:
Is the 45CS a .451 or .454 bullet dia. cartridge? or doesn't it matter?

It's a handloaded wildcat cartridge, so pick your poison.

DWalt · Feb 19, 2016

For use in a .45 Colt, the best bullet diameter would be .453-.454. Also probably would be OK for a .455. The .451 diameter is better for use in reloading .45 ACP.

alwslate · Feb 19, 2016

Erich said:
I knew they were available in .45 ACP in the past, but I haven't seen any for sale in that chambering lately (and they were not available any longer in .45 AC) when I bought my .45 Colt cylinder a few years ago). Does anyone know if they've been brought back?

I would say they are available. I found out about the acp cyl
by looking at the Howell website. I emailed them and asked
if the cyls worked with AR brass or only acp brass. I got a
reply from "Maggie" who obviously didn't really understand
the issues involved between the two. So I tried to explain the
concepts involved and am waiting to hear back from her.

alwslate · Feb 19, 2016

2152hq said:
Is the 45CS a .451 or .454 bullet dia. cartridge? or doesn't it matter?

The case sounds real close to the .455 Webley (MkI). The Webley has the very thin rim though.

The 45CS isn't a cartridge it's a cartridge case. Look at it as
a modified 45 Colt or 45 AR case to produce a case with the
same capacity as the 45 acp and AR that will chamber and
headspace in the much longer 45 Colt chamber. The idea is
to take advantage of the ballistic efficiency of the compact
acp case in the long 45 Colt chamber. It's just a 45AR case
with the rim thinned to the thickness of the 45 Colt case
and loaded like a 45 AR or acp. Bullet dia would depend on
the gun used in, up to the user.

Erich · Feb 19, 2016

alwslate said:
I would say they are available. I found out about the acp cyl
by looking at the Howell website. I emailed them and asked
if the cyls worked with AR brass or only acp brass. I got a
reply from "Maggie" who obviously didn't really understand
the issues involved between the two. So I tried to explain the
concepts involved and am waiting to hear back from her.

Neat to hear they're in stock - I'm on their site now.

The .45 ACP cylinders work only with .45 ACP brass, not .45 AR brass. The pix on this thread will reveal why that is the case (the rim cut-outs in the Howells cylinder will not accommodate the wide .45 AR rim - look at the photo below and the two right-most cartridges in the photo below that).

Frank237 · Feb 19, 2016

Wonder what CAS would be like if they had to use TRUE era correct cartridges? Meaning if you shot a .45 colt it was the traditional bullet weight and velocity.

I guess they would all be shooting the smallest round available at the time.

alwslate · Feb 19, 2016

Erich said:
Neat to hear they're in stock - I'm on their site now.

The .45 ACP cylinders work only with .45 ACP brass, not .45 AR brass. The pix on this thread will reveal why that is the case (the rim cut-outs in the Howells cylinder will not accommodate the wide .45 AR rim - look at the photo below and the two right-most cartridges in the photo below that).

You're right, proves the old saying,"one picture is worth a
thousand words". I assumed they probably only worked with
acp brass because when she emailed me back I realized that
she just didn't understand the issue and she insisted that
as long as they were the same dia. case they would both
work. I tried to explain about clips, rims and headspacing
and she said their cyls had steps in the chambers to keep
the cases from falling in and didn't need clips. At that point
I figured that the cyls were not cut for clips or rims and
would not accept the AR rim. Some dealers discount the
cyls a little from the $240 retail but I haven't seen the acp
cyl anywhere but the Howell website. Everything considered
the acp cyl still seems to be the best way to go.

StrawHat · Feb 19, 2016

Frank237 said:
Wonder what CAS would be like if they had to use TRUE era correct cartridges? Meaning if you shot a .45 colt it was the traditional bullet weight and velocity.

I guess they would all be shooting the smallest round available at the time.

What do you think the traditional bullet weight and charge was for the 45 long Colt?

Kevin

DWalt · Feb 20, 2016

"What do you think the traditional bullet weight and charge was for the 45 long Colt?"

First, there was never a .45 Long Colt, only a .45 Colt. And the Army did not use it, except in the very early days, pre-1876. For the most part, the Army always issued the shorter .45 S&W/.45 Schofield cartridge, which would fit both the Colt SAA and the S&W Schofield.

The original .45 S&W/Schofield military load was inside primed and used a 230 grain flat-point lead bullet. In 1882, the boxer primed case was adopted. The same bullet was retained, and the black powder charge used was 28 grains. Late period loads used a 225 grain lead flat point bullet and 26 grains of black powder. The very last loads (1908) used smokeless powder instead of black powder. The final iteration of the .45 Colt was the M1909, essentially the longer .45 Colt case with a slightly larger rim diameter, for use in the M1909 Colt New Service revolver. It was loaded with a 250 grain flat point lead bullet and a special bulk smokeless powder (R.S.Q.). The stated MV of the M1909 cartridge was 715 ft/sec.

max · Feb 20, 2016

One of the many things I like about this forum is that not only am I entertained, but I actually learn things. I don't have any revolvers that fire the acp round. If I did, I would be all over this new brass. I do have 2 that fire the 45 Colt round and I load 7 or 8 grains of Unique over a cast 250 or sometimes 200 gr bullet and am happy with the results. I see no need for a new round to reload at this time.

I actually drove from Illinois to New Mexico several years ago to meet Erich. He is a most interesting and entertaining gentleman. Actually I was on my way to the SWCA meeting, but we stopped to meet him on the way.

Erich · Feb 20, 2016

Actually, Max, what the .45 Cowboy Special does is allow a fellow to use .45 ACP loadings in .45 Colt guns. Less powder, more pressure, more efficient. The Cowboy Special gives you .45 ACP brass volume set up with a .45 Colt rim.

It was great to meet you and Tennexplorer - Please let me know the next time you come through!

max · Feb 20, 2016

Actually, I understood that. I just did not explain myself well. We are headed to Baton Rouge this year. If you should see us, we would be lost. Come and join us for some Cajun food.

2152hq · Feb 21, 2016

alwslate said:
The 45CS isn't a cartridge it's a cartridge case.

Well OK I guess ,,I'll gently ask then what bullet dia would you think an ammo mfg might choose to put up in them if they ever get them to market.

It's an interesting concept and cartridge, but it isn't going to do much accuracy wise if bullet dia., throat & bore dimensions are all over the place.
..Unless its only meant to shoot pie plates at 15ft @ 450fps. Then it doesn't matter much what you top it off with,,or call it.

FWIW..I cut down 45 Colt brass (usually WW brand) to make 455 Webley MkI and MkII length all the time and don't have any problem with the interior walls being too thick for .454d bullet.
Federal brand seems OK to from the little I've used.
Some folks have said they've had problems with some brands through.

I thin the rims on the 45Colt to 455Webley thickness by swedging them in a die instead of turning off the brass.
I'm not sure if the swedging process would work as well taking 45AR rim thickness down to 45CS thickness I'm thinking there may be too much material to move. Plus it would make the rim larger in diameter if it did work (the brass has to go somewhere). I don't know if the latter would be a problem in (some) revolvers.
Just some thoughts...

jaymoore · Feb 21, 2016

Interesting to note the .45 ACP Howell cylinder is a five shooter, whilst the .45 Colt chambered cylinder of Erich's Howell conversion is six shot.

A concession to the rather higher .45 ACP working pressures?

alwslate · Feb 21, 2016

2152hq said:
Well OK I guess ,,I'll gently ask then what bullet dia would you think an ammo mfg might choose to put up in them if they ever get them to market.

FWIW..I cut down 45 Colt brass (usually WW brand) to make 455 Webley MkI and MkII length all the time and don't have any problem with the interior walls being too thick for .454d bullet.
Federal brand seems OK to from the little I've used.
Some folks have said they've had problems with some brands through.

I thin the rims on the 45Colt to 455Webley thickness by swedging them in a die instead of turning off the brass.
I'm not sure if the swedging process would work as well taking 45AR rim thickness down to 45CS thickness I'm thinking there may be too much material to move. Plus it would make the rim larger in diameter if it did work (the brass has to go somewhere). I don't know if the latter would be a problem in (some) revolvers.
Just some thoughts...

I understand that there has been some CS ammo produced
and sold but as to bullet dia, I don't know because I had
never heard of it until recently. Someone probably has
experience with it and might know. It's interesting to hear
that you have been able to shorten .45 Colt brass so much
and don't have to thin the case wall. The whole idea is to
reduce case volume to .45 acp capacity to increase efficiency
and use existing load data without the need for load
development. Obviously there's more than one way to do it.
Swedging AR rims probably wouldn't be a great idea but
the rims could be thinned from the front in a small lathe it
would seem. Of course buying the cylinder in .45 acp would
be the easiest and the brass is abundant and cheap compared
to the others. The only drawback is that roll crimping could
not be used. With light loads in the heavy Ruger I don't
know how much of a problem that would be or if a taper crimp
would be good enough.

alwslate · Feb 21, 2016

jaymoore said:
Interesting to note the .45 ACP Howell cylinder is a five shooter, whilst the .45 Colt chambered cylinder of Erich's Howell conversion is six shot.

A concession to the rather higher .45 ACP working pressures?

Good question. I assumed Erich used that picture just for
illustration and it was not a Ruger cylinder because the
Howell cylinders are made for several imported revolvers
also and some of them probably lack the cylinder size and
strength of the Ruger. The back plate is a different design
than the one used with the Ruger cylinders so I assume the
Ruger cylinders are six shot. I don't think there is any
concern about the pressure of the .45 acp round in the
Howell cylinders. They are the same diameter as the Ruger
cyl and made of 4150 steel. I have read that Ruger tried to
blow up the cyl of the Old Army with torture tests using
Bullseye powder but was unsuccessful.

Erich · Feb 21, 2016

jaymoore said:
Interesting to note the .45 ACP Howell cylinder is a five shooter, whilst the .45 Colt chambered cylinder of Erich's Howell conversion is six shot.

A concession to the rather higher .45 ACP working pressures?

First thing to realize is that Ruger Old Army is a much bigger gun than an 1858 Remington - bigger cylinder and cylinder window.

peh_7 · Feb 21, 2016

I made up about 100 45CS cases from Colt cases to try out the concept of loading a shorter case to get lower velocities. From what I can see when using 45ACP data there is no real advantage over using 45 Schofield cases with the available data for that cartridge. I also seem to have better accuracy with the 45 Schofield than with the 45CS. So, IMHO there is no advantage to the 45CS, especially since Schofield brass and load data are available. BTW, I shot these in a Ruger Blackhawk, Old Army Conversion and a Schofield Replica.

PEH_7

Erich · Feb 21, 2016

peh_7 said:
I made up about 100 45CS cases from Colt cases to try out the concept of loading a shorter case to get lower velocities. From what I can see when using 45ACP data there is no real advantage over using 45 Schofield cases with the available data for that cartridge. I also seem to have better accuracy with the 45 Schofield than with the 45CS. So, IMHO there is no advantage to the 45CS, especially since Schofield brass and load data are available. BTW, I shot these in a Ruger Blackhawk, Old Army Conversion and a Schofield Replica.

PEH_7

That's nice it works for you. I'm not able to put Schofield rims into my Howell's conversion or my Bond Arms derringer, hence the CS brass purchase.

Stareline 45 Cowboy Special Brass.

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