Squib Behavior & Protocol

[otisrush]

[I hope this is the right place for this. It's really about shooting - but squibs seem to impact/be the subject most in a reloading context.]

I brought this up quite a number of months ago. I'm not sure if it was this or another reloading forum. If this horse has been beaten to death then I'll let the thread die a natural death.

The recent kaboom thread and the story of a squib's bullet preventing the next round to go into battery resurrected in my brain the question that bugs me:

Will a no-powder squib load cycle an action on a semi-auto? I think for a gas operated action like an AR if there is enough power to get the bullet passed the gas block but not push the bullet out there wouldn't be enough pressure to cycle the action. And I think on a semi-auto pistol the primer wouldn't be sufficient to push completely against the slide spring.

As reloaders we talk frequently of our efforts to prevent squibs. I think we talk INFREQUENTLY about recognizing them and how cautious we must be to handle them correctly. It's one thing to make a mistake and manufacture a squib. It's yet another to make an ADDITIONAL mistake by not handling the first mistake correctly. It's the two in combination that cause the kaboom.

When in slow-fire situations I believe (hope) I'm aware enough of the ramifications of a less-than-normal report that I would not just mindlessly rack the slide and get a fresh round in the chamber behind a bullet stuck somewhere down the barrel. But rapid fire scenarios are my real concern. If I'm shooting a fast string I'm not confident hardly any of us would have the presence of mind to hold up.

If a squib can virtually never cycle the action then I think we have an almost automatic safety mechanism - AS LONG AS we don't ignore the fact we got a FTE and then just rack the slide without thinking.

Thoughts?

Thanks.

OR

[OKFC05]

From long experience officiating at USPSA and IDPA, I've never seen a true no-powder squib cycle a semi-auto. However, I've seen more than one shooter grab the slide and fire another round into the squib, with the official screaming STOP!! There is one shooter at our club that has done it 3 TIMES!

IF IT GOES POP, STOP!

[Rule3]

OKFC05 said it well.

The squib load (no powder) is not going to cycle a semi auto.Even if it did it will be partial and the feeling is so much different.
So a squib goes pop and lodges a bullet. The semi auto is going to malfunction. As you say it is now the shooter that is in control or NOT! If they just rack the slide and pull the trigger then it's the shooter at fault, It really should never happen with a semi auto.

With a revolver if one is rapid firing so fast that one does not recognize the squib(which they should anyway) then kaboom happens.

Just a FYI, the NRA definition of a squib is not a stuck bullet but can be a "under-powered load"

In the "heat" of the moment of competition shooting, shooter are so intent on time that they may overlook the squib and keep on shooting.

[Bkreutz]

The squibs I've personally observed in competition will not cycle the action on a pistol, but none of the bullets went far enough into the barrel to allow the next round to be chambered so even though the shooter tried to rack a new round in, it wouldn't fire anyway. (giving him/her enough time to react to the "STOP" being shouted by everyone around them. )

[otisrush]

Originally Posted by Rule3

OKFC05 said it well.

The squib load (no powder) is not going to cycle a semi auto.Even if it did it will be partial and the feeling is so much different.
So a squib goes pop and lodges a bullet. The semi auto is going to malfunction. As you say it is now the shooter that is in control or NOT! If they just rack the slide and pull the trigger then it's the shooter at fault, It really should never happen with a semi auto.

With a revolver if one is rapid firing so fast that one does not recognize the squib(which they should anyway) then kaboom happens.

Just a FYI, the NRA definition of a squib is not a stuck bullet but can be a "under-powered load"

In the "heat" of the moment of competition shooting, shooter are so intent on time that they may overlook the squib and keep on shooting.

Thanks for the reminder on revolvers.

To your point about the NRA definition: I think you're saying the NRA definition is "An underpowered load."? The result of that, then, *MIGHT* be a stuck bullet - meaning one could have a squib and not have a bullet stuck in the barrel.

I have to say - as an aside: With how much force it apparently takes to pound a stuck bullet out of a barrel (I've never had to do it) - it is AMAZING the pressures involved that move that bullet down the barrel - at the speeds that it does.

At a very core, basic, physics level the mechanics and details about shooting in general are just fascinating to me. It is one of the MANY reasons I like reloading.

Thanks.

OR

[Twoboxer]

Last time this discussion came up, I was taught to respect the fact that there are certain kinds of pistols that need little power to cycle. Whether these are certain kinds of "blow-back" or something else, I don't recall.

Combine that with the fact that a squib can theoretically occur with primer plus some very small amount of powder, and I do not think less- than-normal report and failure to cycle combine to form an "automatic" safety mechanism.

However, you said "virtually automatic". I wouldn't disagree that it's "virtually automatic", but I wouldn't want to promote that notion.

To me, "less-than-normal report" ALWAYS requires a barrel check. That's what should become automatic. JMO.

[MyDads38]

Originally Posted by otisrush

[I hope this is the right place for this. It's really about shooting - but squibs seem to impact/be the subject most in a reloading context.]

I brought this up quite a number of months ago. I'm not sure if it was this or another reloading forum. If this horse has been beaten to death then I'll let the thread die a natural death.

The recent kaboom thread and the story of a squib's bullet preventing the next round to go into battery resurrected in my brain the question that bugs me:

Will a no-powder squib load cycle an action on a semi-auto? I think for a gas operated action like an AR if there is enough power to get the bullet passed the gas block but not push the bullet out there wouldn't be enough pressure to cycle the action. And I think on a semi-auto pistol the primer wouldn't be sufficient to push completely against the slide spring.

As reloaders we talk frequently of our efforts to prevent squibs. I think we talk INFREQUENTLY about recognizing them and how cautious we must be to handle them correctly. It's one thing to make a mistake and manufacture a squib. It's yet another to make an ADDITIONAL mistake by not handling the first mistake correctly. It's the two in combination that cause the kaboom.

When in slow-fire situations I believe (hope) I'm aware enough of the ramifications of a less-than-normal report that I would not just mindlessly rack the slide and get a fresh round in the chamber behind a bullet stuck somewhere down the barrel. But rapid fire scenarios are my real concern. If I'm shooting a fast string I'm not confident hardly any of us would have the presence of mind to hold up.

If a squib can virtually never cycle the action then I think we have an almost automatic safety mechanism - AS LONG AS we don't ignore the fact we got a FTE and then just rack the slide without thinking.

Thoughts?

Thanks.

OR

OR, I'm glad you brought this topic up in the Forum. I was interested in hearing from those folks, who compete against time to see what their response would be.

If a "squib" by definition is an "under-powered load", then that's what I experienced at the indoor range several months ago. 1 round from a REM-UMC Mega Pak went "pop" and flashed. I immediately stopped, dropped the mag, and when I cycled the slide back-the spent case ejected. I then took a cleaning rod from my range bag and dropped down the barrel from the muzzle end. Fortunately, the round had enough power for the bullet to exit the barrel, so all was okay to that end.

In competition/speed shooting, just how many folks would actually stop before firing another round? I know some defensive trainers teach tap, rack, fire techniques; how many times would this get someone in trouble, resulting in a "kaboom"?

[Duckford]

“If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough.” -Mario Andretti

Competition does seem to be a big issue, as well as people who are just hammering rounds out of their autoloader as fast as they can for fun. For the competition shooter, tunnel vision on next shot and target can obscure important details, but anyone firing quickly may easily hit a point where they can't sense it,by the time the "pop" occurs and it registers in the mind, you've already' pulled the trigger again anyway. The shooting is a "string" and there is not time for observation or much thought in between rounds. Now take people who bumpfire and people with legal machineguns, and there is simply no fix if the round has enough power to cycle but for the bullet not to clear. There is no excuse to not check when taking it easy, taking time, but to expect every rapid fire/competition shooter to foresee and notice this in time can boil down to Monday morning quarterbacking.

I think my Lyman guide included a 9mm Luger rifle section just to tell people DO NOT underload, because it will cause squibs in 16 inch barrels, AND cycle, leading the worst of all situations. It really pays to know your model, and individual gun, intimately, if you reload for it.

[OKFC05]

Originally Posted by Bkreutz

The squibs I've personally observed in competition will not cycle the action on a pistol, but none of the bullets went far enough into the barrel to allow the next round to be chambered so even though the shooter tried to rack a new round in, it wouldn't fire anyway. (giving him/her enough time to react to the "STOP" being shouted by everyone around them. )

Most of the bullets I've seen in no-powder squibs that went far enough in to fire another round were plain lead.

Revolvers left the jacketed bullet half in the cylinder and half in the barrel, locking it up.

[moxie]

I've experienced only one squib.

It was right after I started reloading. It was a 230 FMJ and a Star PD. The report was totally different, and the recoil was minimal. Didn't hardly begin to cycle the action. So I stopped shooting. The range officer had a brass rod and pounded the bullet out for me. He explained that I had likely not put any powder in that round. And he explained the bright flashlight in each case in a loading block technique that will catch cases with no or little or too much powder. That was 1989. No problems since.

FWIW, I not long ago switched to a Streamlight Stylus Pro flashlight. Went through Maglites and for a number of years, then a cheap LED light the NRA sent me. The Streamlight is the best! Works great. Easy to see inside .223 cases. Really bright and handy.

[subvet69]

Well, I must be the squib champion of the world. I've had around 7. One was a factory load and the rest I tried to get Remington to admit their primers were faulty. They wouldn't, of course. It was one case of 1000 primers that worked fine with 9mm (case mostly filled with powder) but failed at least 6 times in a 38 special with Bullseye. I've loaded over 6000rounds with a different batch number worked great. I got a lot of practice clearing barrels.

[moxie]

The powder is really irrelevant. The primer either fires or it doesn't. The primer doesn't know what powder is there, and doesn't know what caliber case it's in.

Are you seating your primers all the way to the bottom of the cup?
If they worked fine with 9mm but lots of failures in .38, two possibilities arise.

Either you are not fully seating the primers in the .38 cases, or the particular gun you are using has a weak hammer blow. The fact that the primers worked fine in the 9mm but not in the .38 is the key. Technique or gun problem.

[Twoboxer]

Originally Posted by subvet69

Well, I must be the squib champion of the world. I've had around 7. One was a factory load and the rest I tried to get Remington to admit their primers were faulty. . . .

A "squib" is a round that fires but leaves its projectile in the barrel.

If the primer didn't fire, you can't get a squib.

If you got a squib, SOMETHING fired. The primer must have fired.

If the primer fired with enough force to expel the bullet, and if there was a normal amount of powder in the cartridge, why didn't the powder ignite?

Help me . . . what's the logic for blaming the primer?