International law or protocol

I just wasted an hour of my life watching to Heads of State discussing guns. The issue is that US agents are not allowed to be armed while in Mexico. Their shared opinion is Mexican law does not allow it.

Ok, my question, and I never studied International Law or Diplomatic protocol, can a person with Diplomatic Immunity carry weapons? If they can, why not make each agent of the US government Foreign Diplomats and then let them carry guns.

Then my next question is why would the President of Mexico be worried about OUR 2nd Amendment Rights? Why would he ask the President to use his powers to limit the Second Amendment?

Then if the President of Mexico is so concerned about drug traffickers in Mexico, why not pass a law allowing US agents to carry guns in Mexico?

Things seem so simple from my point of view and yet those two powerful men have to spend an hour saying how their hands are tied.

Any international scholars out here?

In a nut shell

Not a lawyer or do I play one on TV, and I did not even stay in a Holiday Inn last night. But to me the short answer is, cops are cops and diplomats are diplomats and the two are diametrically opposed. You can't serve two masters one being the law and the other being the subverters of the law.

I'm no expert either. A lot of Embassy employees are actually gun-toters of some kind. Raymond Davis of the U. S. Embassy in Pakistan was well armed and dispatched two robbers (a pal ran over and killed a third coming to his aid), but his diplomatic immunity hasn't gotten him out of a Pakistani jail:

Raymond Davis Trial To Go Ahead In Pakistan

I remember when DEA agent Kiki Camarena was kidnapped, tortured, and murdered in Mexico in 1985. He and his fellow agents routinely carried guns, and expected to periodically be searched and relieved of their guns. They call it being "de-pistolized".

Well they shouldn't be worrying about all that land they lost-they're doing one whale of a job taking it back.

Pasifikawv said:

Mexico should restore gun rights to its lawful citizens and should allow US agents working with Mexican security forces to have firearms.

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Mexico has a Constitution that allows it's citizens to own guns but with limitations. Any gun cannot be of a military type or issue. A handgun must be 38spc or smaller with .357 and 9mm allowed for protection. Shotguns are 12 ga or smaller. Rifles must be bolt, lever or single shot.

It is foreign visitors not allowed to bring guns into the country.

Their Constitution (Article 10) is much like our Second Amendment, only it has been restricted some over the years.

I'd say the Mexican president is in bed with the Cartel, and is making any excuse he can. Imagine how POed they would be if our Marines landed on their beaches.

oldman45 said:

I just wasted an hour of my life watching to Heads of State discussing guns...

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Yup. End of story. Total waste of time.

If I were a fed and ordered to duty in Mexico, I would ask for reassignment or resign. Why our government proposes to send good men into dangerous situations without even minimal means to protect themselves (handguns certainly aren't much, in that environment) is incomprehensible.

wbraswell said:

I'd say the Mexican president is in bed with the Cartel, and is making any excuse he can. Imagine how POed they would be if our Marines landed on their beaches.

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I would surmise he has to be in some way.
If he wasn't, well, I wouldn't sell him any life insurance.

oldman45 said:

Mexico has a Constitution that allows it's citizens to own guns but with limitations. Any gun cannot be of a military type or issue. A handgun must be 38spc or smaller with .357 and 9mm allowed for protection. Shotguns are 12 ga or smaller. Rifles must be bolt, lever or single shot.

It is foreign visitors not allowed to bring guns into the country.

Their Constitution (Article 10) is much like our Second Amendment, only it has been restricted some over the years.

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Slight correction; .357 and 9 m.m. are NOT allowed. Prohibited. Shotguns must have barrels of 25 inches or longer, but can be 12 gauge or smaller as reported. Semi-auto rifles ARE allowed as long as the Registering Officer decides it looks "civilian" enough and the caliber is between .243 and .30-06. M1 Garands, M-14's, and Carbines are specifically NOT allowed (prohibited again). So, an old Remington 742 in .243 would be fine. A Mini-14 is not. Nor is an AR, or any .223 weapon. All 7.62 x 39 weapons are banned. Heck, consider the caliber banned.

Don't bother trying to get an HK-91, or M1-A, or FAL or anything like that. They'll nail you under a couple different clauses...and they are nailing you with a PROHIB weapon, which has a whole different meaning to being caught with an unregistered non-prohib weapon. There is no "get-out-of-jail-free" clause for having been dumb enough to try registering or transporting a PROHIB weapon either.

Semi-autos in .22 rimfire are no problem. .38 Super is NOT allowed (Prohibited).

Mexican gunlaws have NOTHING to do with "Public Safety". They have everything to do with maintaining the status quo, nothing more. U.S. Law Enforcement or Canadian Law Enforcement in Mexico SHOULD be armed. True diplomatic hardball would get that done. Softball and "touchy-feely" talking won't do squat. But the people that choose the game don't listen to people like me, they prefer "local experts" who have spent less time down here than I have spent sitting on pink Ideal Standard toilets, so don't get your hopes up.

As far as embassy staffing and Diplomatic Immunity goes - the "host country" has the final say.

It is all negotiated between the countries. If we want to add an ICE agent to the embassy there, we will have to wait until they want to add position at their embassy in Washington.

calmex said:

Slight correction; .357 and 9 m.m. are NOT allowed. Prohibited. Shotguns must have barrels of 25 inches or longer, but can be 12 gauge or smaller as reported. Semi-auto rifles ARE allowed as long as the Registering Officer decides it looks "civilian" enough and the caliber is between .243 and .30-06. M1 Garands, M-14's, and Carbines are specifically NOT allowed (prohibited again). So, an old Remington 742 in .243 would be fine. A Mini-14 is not. Nor is an AR, or any .223 weapon. All 7.62 x 39 weapons are banned. Heck, consider the caliber banned.

Don't bother trying to get an HK-91, or M1-A, or FAL or anything like that. They'll nail you under a couple different clauses...and they are nailing you with a PROHIB weapon, which has a whole different meaning to being caught with an unregistered non-prohib weapon. There is no "get-out-of-jail-free" clause for having been dumb enough to try registering or transporting a PROHIB weapon either.

Semi-autos in .22 rimfire are no problem. .38 Super is NOT allowed (Prohibited).

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"Slight," eh? Clever little choice of words. After I read the corrections, it looks like nothing much is left in the way of useful sidearms.

When Mexico modified Article 10 (their RTKBA) of its Constitution to allow all kinds of restrictions and prohibitions, the aim was to take away any useful firearm from the populace and make it as difficult as possible for folks to acquire those that are not prohibited.

In addition to all the prohibitions detailed by Calmex consider this:

In order to purchase a new firearm in Mexico, one must:
-Join a registered shooting/hunting club. Can't apply for permit unless you belong to a registered club.
-Make a lengthy application for a purchase permit
-Make a lengthy application for a permit to transport the firearm from point of sale to home. (Cased & unloaded – not CCW)
-Make a lengthy application for permit to transport firearm from home to shooting club. (Cased and unloaded – not CCW)
-All purchasers must travel to Mexico City to purchase their firearm from the 1 and only gun shop in the County. (It is run by the Defense Dept.)
-Lifetime limits are placed on gun purchases. Only 1 handgun is permitted; multiple long guns are allowed up to the cap of 10 total firearms purchases.
-No more than 200 rounds of ammo can be purchased or possessed for any handgun. Max 500 rounds for long guns.
-There are ZERO shooting ranges open to the general public in Mexico
-Firearms must be stored in the home to prevent theft. As condition for the owner's permit, the gov't can audit at any time without warning or warrant to insure the firearms are in your possession, stored properly and no stockpiles of ammo over the limit are present.
-While transport of cased and unloaded is allowed between home and shooting club property with permit, no carry –open or concealed- is allow for the public.
-Only the politically connected may receive special permission for concealed carry or obtain concealed carry permits for their bodyguards.

I may have missed or mixed-up a detail or two here, but I think this is generally how it goes in Mexico...

Pasifikawv said:

When Mexico modified Article 10 (their RTKBA) of its Constitution to allow all kinds of restrictions and prohibitions, the aim was to take away any useful firearm from the populace and make it as difficult as possible for folks to acquire those that are not prohibited.

In addition to all the prohibitions detailed by Calmex consider this:

In order to purchase a new firearm in Mexico, one must:
-Join a registered shooting/hunting club. Can't apply for permit unless you belong to a registered club.
-Make a lengthy application for a purchase permit
-Make a lengthy application for a permit to transport the firearm from point of sale to home. (Cased & unloaded – not CCW)
-Make a lengthy application for permit to transport firearm from home to shooting club. (Cased and unloaded – not CCW)
-All purchasers must travel to Mexico City to purchase their firearm from the 1 and only gun shop in the County. (It is run by the Defense Dept.)
-Lifetime limits are placed on gun purchases. Only 1 handgun is permitted; multiple long guns are allowed up to the cap of 10 total firearms purchases.
-No more than 200 rounds of ammo can be purchased or possessed for any handgun. Max 500 rounds for long guns.
-There are ZERO shooting ranges open to the general public in Mexico
-Firearms must be stored in the home to prevent theft. As condition for the owner's permit, the gov't can audit at any time without warning or warrant to insure the firearms are in your possession, stored properly and no stockpiles of ammo over the limit are present.
-While transport of cased and unloaded is allowed between home and shooting club property with permit, no carry –open or concealed- is allow for the public.
-Only the politically connected may receive special permission for concealed carry or obtain concealed carry permits for their bodyguards.

I may have missed or mixed-up a detail or two here, but I think this is generally how it goes in Mexico...

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I will correct you only where you are wrong, and you are correct in most of your points. I certainly mean no insult. However, please remember that I have lived here 20 years and have a fairly good idea of how things work. Believe me, I read MANY misconceptions about the Mexican Gun Laws. Probably the most prominent one is that the .38 Super is legal. It is not.

Now, I will address all your points.

- Correct that you MUST belong to a club if you are applying to register a firearm you wish to take shooting. You can still register if not a member of a club, but the permit will be a "permit for the house" only and you can never take it out shooting. You can only buy 200 rounds a year (from the Army store) for a firearm registered to the house. You can buy 200 rounds a month for one that can be used for Sport shooting. Everyone reloads anyway. Yes, it's illegal supposedly. Our gunclub President was asked by the Army "how many of your members reload?" His reply was "all of them. Get over it." They really have a hate on for him, and I admire him.

- Correct that it is a LENGTHY B.S. filled process to apply to buy from the Army Store. Here, in the outter rim of the Galaxy, we can just GO to the Army base a register a "legal" non-prohibited firearm by just showing up with the weapon. Obviously, this can be hard on the nerves to drive into Satan's Den with an unregistered firearm for the purpose of making it a registered one ... but it's like parachuting. Now we get to see what you're really made of. I have had over a dozen guns registered and only bought one from the Army Store. Mexico is divided into "military districts". SMAGTO is in the 16/A Military District. Queretaro is in a different one. So, we don't drive to Mexico City for a local registry, we drive either to Queretaro or Sarabia, the Military Base. Each base is run by a different General. The General in Charge CANNOT change the law...but he CAN interpret it differently than another General might. A General who feels that YOU should not own more than one pistol can try to make your life very difficult if you want to own five. On the other hand, a General who likes Smith and Wesson revolvers and who delights in knowing that YOU do too might be kind of nice to have around. If you get my drift.

- The Club usually has to apply for your transport permit. Transport is cased and unloaded as described. Correct.

- Correct about the Army store. A few years ago, they started allowing smaller Sporting Goods Stores to sell ammo again. They sell .38 Special, .380, and .22 at outrageous prices! But again...everyone reloads. Get over it. (For those who MUST ask where reloading equipment like powder and primers come from, "the Stork brings it." And you always thought the Stork brought babies! Silly you!)

- Okay, here you are right and wrong. You can only have 10 guns on your transport permit. No more. Now, the Army would have you believe that this means you can only HAVE 10 guns. Not so. The law does not SAY that. What happens is that many people have "hunting permits" and "shooting permits" -- while you are only supposed to have one or the other it is easily done by being a member of two clubs -- and you have 10 on your "shooting permit" and another 4 or 5 on your "hunting permit". On a "hunting permit" you can have 9 rifles or shotguns and ONE handgun, which must be a .22. On a "Shooting Permit", you can have 10 handguns if you want. Oh, the Army will bellyache, but find a sympathetic Sergeant and give him a bottle of good tequila and make SURE he has access to the registration desk and your luck might change.

- Correct on the 200 rounds. That is monthly for Sport Shooting firearms and Yearly for Home Defense Registered firearms. Shotgun shells you can buy 1,000 a month. .22 Shells 500 a month. You could (and people do) go to the Army Store and buy your allotment, then hit all the small Sporting Goods stores and really stock up at 200 a month from each. But .38 Special shells cost like 40.00 dollars a BOX of 50 for the Aguila 130 grain load. Who wants to stock up? Everyone reloads. Wheelweights are cheap. Storks bring components.

- Okay, this one is not correct. There are Shooting Ranges. Our shooting range in Queretaro is just amazing. YOU would be amazed. I mean all of "you". I have shot in the Bianchi Cup, and Second Chance, and all over the place, but believe me the Queretaro range is PRIMO. It isn't cheap to belong to, but the weather is 365 days a year shooting weather. Crappy laws. Got to know the Stork. AND you have to drive across tracts of Mexico with your guns knowing there are people out there that don't like you and SOME of them are in uniforms...but hey! It's a sport! Right? I do not know how many shooting ranges there are in Mexico, but quite a few. We are just starting up a new one here in SMAGTO, North up by Dolores. Paperwork has taken 3 years now, but we are CLOSE! Got the Governor's approval and all, and the Army is actually being VERY decent about it, only asking for some small changes to our original plan before final approval. Probably, although I would not testify to this, some tequila might have been involved in that part of the process.

- Okay, yes, this is mostly correct. Maybe 100% correct, but let me comment: your firearm must be stored at the address it is registered to. Although in theory the Army CAN come and check at any time, this has only happened once when some "snitch" hoping to get special treatment told the Army a bunch of us had "prohib" weapons in our houses. They did NOT really check, they were VERY amicable when they came, and I could have had a howitzer in the other room and they didn't even look. I expected "S.S. Style" treatment, and saw nothing of the sort. I am not saying it cannot happen, but I am saying it did not happen to me, or any of my friends. AND, we knew we had this guy trying to rat on us, but his gun knowledge was not up to what he thought it was and he was sorely mistaken. I think the Army realized that and the whole thing to them was more of a formality than anything else.

- Correct. Transport must be cased. We carry magazines or speedloaders ready to go and have "stuff" quickly accessable. Best that can be done. Again, it's a "get over it" situation one has to live with IF one is going to live here and shoot.

- This is 100% correct. The politically connected part. Now, let me add that lately even the politically connected cannot get carry permits nor can their bodyguards. Why do you think that is? You don't think the kidnapping gangs might have paid off the Army to NOT give out those permits so that their most profitable marks would be completely defenseless, do you? I mean, wow! That just couldn't happen, could it? Here? Oh, come on!

Again, Pacifikawv, I mean no disrespect whatsoever in making corrections to your points. I think you nailed it pretty darned close, considering you aren't living right in the grinder like I am. However, so that we remain "misconception free", I just want to rectify the few (basically small) details you didn't have nailed right down.

I repeat once again: Mexico's gun laws have nothing to do with "Public Safety" and everything to do with not letting anything change from "the way it has always been".

Anyway, I gotta go. Me and my friend are going shooting RIGHT NOW!!! In the warm hot sun!!! Driving across tracts of Mexico where people who might not like us might be lurking...and some of them will be uniformed. I will check in with you all again TONIGHT! Stay safe, as so many of you always say to me.

calmex said:

I will correct you only where you are wrong, and you are correct in most of your points. I certainly mean no insult....

Again, Pacifikawv, I mean no disrespect whatsoever in making corrections to your points. I think you nailed it pretty darned close, considering you aren't living right in the grinder like I am. ....

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No offense taken. The opposite actually. Thank you, thank you, thank you!!! (Anyone who finds offense when he is mistaken has his head too far up his own rear end...)

If all goes well, I will be living in the "grinder" in the future. My dollar will go much further and the wife has lots of family there. I have tried my best to get a grasp of the situation from afar and visited pro-gun sites like mexicoarmado. On my many visits to Mexico, I have never engaged in shooting sports. I had basically decided to wait until I become FM-3 before broaching that in-country. That may change. I was led to believe that there are no ranges open to the public - all were private/member-only/restricted access.

I greatly appreciate your "boots-on-the-ground" insight and perspective. Your single post/reply provided more insight and info than I have been able to gather over a long period of time.

I have been told that the powers-that-be are particularly hard on Gringos who engage in shooting sports and that they will haul Gringos off to jail if they don't toe the line exactly. I am glad to read that your experience doesn't reflect that doom-n-gloom.

While none of my wife's closest relatives are avid shooters and I have never had the privilege of visiting a shooting range/club in Mexico, those male relatives that visit us here in the USA love to go shooting with me. They all wished they could enjoy shooting sports in Mexico as freely as we do here in the US. Since they cannot (and therefore generally do not), none have been able to relay the valuable insight that you have provided. Many thanks!

L.E. Guns Abroad

Simply put, some countries allow law enforcement officers to carry abroad while on official business...some don't and won't. It's all worked out between the working agencies and the diplomatic protocol. If I was still a Fed and was assigned to a country such as Mexico, if I didn't have access to protective weaponry I'd refuse the assignment and take the consequences. If Mexico wants the help, it needs to be on OUR terms, not theirs.

Can you imagine a military pilot being assigned to Afghanistan and being told he or she can't wear a parachute, because the Afghan government prohibits 'chutes?

Stupidity prevails everywhere. Write your congressman!

Pasifikawv said:

No offense taken. The opposite actually. Thank you, thank you, thank you!!! (Anyone who finds offense when he is mistaken has his head too far up his own rear end...)

If all goes well, I will be living in the "grinder" in the future. My dollar will go much further and the wife has lots of family there. I have tried my best to get a grasp of the situation from afar and visited pro-gun sites like mexicoarmado. On my many visits to Mexico, I have never engaged in shooting sports. I had basically decided to wait until I become FM-3 before broaching that in-country. That may change. I was led to believe that there are no ranges open to the public - all were private/member-only/restricted access.

I greatly appreciate your "boots-on-the-ground" insight and perspective. Your single post/reply provided more insight and info than I have been able to gather over a long period of time.

I have been told that the powers-that-be are particularly hard on Gringos who engage in shooting sports and that they will haul Gringos off to jail if they don't toe the line exactly. I am glad to read that your experience doesn't reflect that doom-n-gloom.

While none of my wife's closest relatives are avid shooters and I have never had the privilege of visiting a shooting range/club in Mexico, those male relatives that visit us here in the USA love to go shooting with me. They all wished they could enjoy shooting sports in Mexico as freely as we do here in the US. Since they cannot (and therefore generally do not), none have been able to relay the valuable insight that you have provided. Many thanks!

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I post under Calmex on Mexico Armado as well. I just don't post much. I'll be doing a training clinic in Queretaro for IPSC Classic Revolver in May. Obviously, we do a lot of revolver stuff here. You can get the .38 Special up to enough power to be useful easier than the .380, although we've done that too.

When you move down here -- or if you come this way for a visit -- we'll take you shooting. There are good Clubs in Guadalahara and other areas, but it is the BEST right here. In many ways, the former U.S. Consul Phil Maher and my old friend Colonel Phil Roettinger were responsible for "paving the way" for the Gringo population here in SMAGTO. They are, sadly, both gone now, but their legacy continues in a strong, thriving Gringo population in this area that never would have been allowed to grow and flower if those two hadn't kept the Mexican Authorities in line and towing the rope during the gestation period.

In about 2002 or so the Governor of the State was eating in the same restaurant where I happened to be with some other people in the town of Guanajuato -- which is the same name as the State we live in by the way. When he found out I was a Canadian living in SMAGTO, he decided to show off his excellent English (he has an American wife from Wisconsin of all places) and asked me what the City of Guanajuato would have to do to attract a large North American population like San Miguel has.

"Get a U.S. Consul like the one San Miguel has," was my reply.

He looked at me sort of confused-like for a moment or two, probably thinking "this idiot Canadian must speak French and doesn't understand me..." or something like that.

"Well," he declared, "ONE man cannot make such a difference."

"Yeah?" I replied. "You just don't really KNOW this man." Maher made San Miguel a safe place to be for Northerners for 30 years or so and now the population is well established and brings in a lot of tourism and jobs to this town. The flower would be alot harder to kill off now than it would have been 30 years ago...although 2010 really was NOT a good year for business any way you look at it.

Anyway, if you are really thinking of coming down here, check out SMAGTO. Since the bubble burst, there's hundreds of over-priced properties around for the unsuspecting Northerner to buy...but if you look around, you can still find some good deals. Something you couldn't do before the bubble burst.

OLDFED said:

Simply put, some countries allow law enforcement officers to carry abroad while on official business...some don't and won't. It's all worked out between the working agencies and the diplomatic protocol. If I was still a Fed and was assigned to a country such as Mexico, if I didn't have access to protective weaponry I'd refuse the assignment and take the consequences. If Mexico wants the help, it needs to be on OUR terms, not theirs.

Can you imagine a military pilot being assigned to Afghanistan and being told he or she can't wear a parachute, because the Afghan government prohibits 'chutes?

Stupidity prevails everywhere. Write your congressman!

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I could not have said it better myself. Agree 100% all the way around!

Briefly, "Their shared opinion is" not worth the time it takes to ignore it.

"Mexican law" is an oxymoron.