Black Powder .38 Special Loads

A question that is often bandied about regards the performance level of original Black Powder .38 Special ammunition. Since all original B.P. .38 Spl. ammunition is at least 100 years old and likely badly degraded it is neither practical nor informative to shoot original B.P. loads for velocity. As a result it is necessary to handload B.P. ammunition as closely as possible to the original load using the most similar components currently available.

I started a post asking if anyone had any "Balloon head" .38 Spl. brass that they would be willing to donate to the cause. Member HKSmith was good enough to provide me with nearly a full box of Remington-UMC cases and ammunition. Some were Balloon head and some were of modern style when broken down, but enough to work with! Unfortunately the loaded ammunition in the Balloon head cases had been originally loaded with Mercuric primers and the attrition rate when I fired them was quite high as would be expected.

I selected just the last B.P. load of 21.5 gr. FFFg to duplicate for the most part. There were three bullets used, Lyman 357446, a 160 gr. cast SWC, Lyman 358665 RNFP "Cowboy", and the RCBS .38-158 Cast LRN. Seating was to the cannellure in each case. One interesting thing I discovered is that, contrary to expectation, both the balloon head cases and modern solid head cases had the same capacity! When loaded with the same charge they were both filled so close enough to the same point as to be indistinguishable! Both were filled to slightly more than 1/8" from the case mouth. This was quite a surprise. Compression of the charge was quite severe. Powder was Gearhart-Owen. All loads were weighed to eliminate this small difference.

The first load fired was the "original" charge of 18 gr. FFFg behind the RCBS .38-158 RN. Fired from my oldest .38, a 1905 4th Change 5" made ca. 1918. Chronographed average velocity for 15 rounds was 702 FPS. This gun was selected as it most closely represents actual guns available when B.P. loads were still common.

As noted above the remainder below were the up-graded 21.5 gr. FFFg. charge.

Next load was Lyman 358665 158 gr LRN "Cowboy". Same 1905 4th change. Average velocity for 30 rounds was 798 FPS.

Finally Lyman 358665 158 gr LRN "Cowboy". This was fired in my Model 10-4 6". Average velocity for 6 rounds was 822 FPS.

Not surprisingly fouling was severe. Only 6 rounds could be fired and the charge holes had to be thoroughly brushed out before the next 6 rounds could be loaded! The issue was the bullet in the fouled throat. I changed to the Model 10-4 hoping fouling would not be such a problem, but it was just as bad as in the 1905! This really made me wonder about the utility of a revolver loaded with Black Powder ammunition!

Compare these velocities to modern Lead bullet factory ammunition. Velocities are quite comparable, with the edge going slightly to the B.P. ammunition. Does anyone still believe that modern ammunition is "dumbed down" from original loads?

I hope you find this interesting.

That was very interesting and informative, Alk8944. I've often wondered what old cartridges such as the 38 Special, 45 Colt and 44 Russian would perform like when loaded with a snootful of good old black powder. Thanks for posting this up.

Great information on this time honored classic - thank you for sharing

Great info. And interesting.

Alk8944 said:

Compare these velocities to modern Lead bullet factory ammunition. Velocities are quite comparable, with the edge going slightly to the B.P. ammunition. Does anyone still believe that modern ammunition is "dumbed down" from original loads?

I hope you find this interesting.

Click to expand...

I don't believe they are 'dumbed down' fom the original loads, but I know that they are dumbed down from the loads of 40 plus years ago.

There's no denying that B.P. 'worked' and could fire bullets and kill. But look at the performance of all cartridges from .22 LR to the biggest magnum. Besides the fouling and smoke, which blinded people in the field, there really isn't any way that you are going to push a 150 grain rifle bullet over 3200 fps with B.P. in a conventional rifle. The controlled burn rate trumps a bigger explosion that you get as you increase charges of B.P.

That said, playing with B.P. is fun, interesting, rewarding and the whole kit and kaboodle.

Back in 1981, when I was hired as a deputy sheriff and sent to the state police academy, we were each given a 500 round case of reloaded .38 Special midrange, flush-seated wadcutters for the firearms portion of our training. It was HSM brand, packed loose in 50 round, bright orange cardboard boxes. There were 8 of us from my department in a class that totaled probably 40 men and 2 women.

Rather than just tear open my ammo boxes, I opened them carefully, so they could be reused. At the end of each range session, I tumbled my spent, mixed-headstamp brass in my brass tumbler. I had a Lee mould that cast a wadcutter that looked like the one HSM was loading.

Always looking for ways to break up tension through humor, I loaded these empty cases with my cast bullets over a proper charge of Pyrodex, which was a non-corrosive substitute for black powder. Pyrodex when shot gives off a big, gray cloud of stinky smoke and a somewhat restrained report.

I slipped one box of them into another deputy's range bag, swapping it for a box of regular HSM stuff. The range we were using is outdoors, up one of our local canyons, and luckily that day there was a good breeze to help clear out the thick clouds produced from the bowl the range sat in. No one voiced concerns about anything being wrong, just the usual opinions that the county must have bought the cheapest reloads they could find, utilizing low bids.

The second box brought better results. After graduating from POST, we had to then qualify with our department. We had an indoor range in the basement of the Metro Hall of Justice, where the sheriffs office shared space with the county jail and the Salt Lake City Police Department. Shortly after this incident, the EPA closed the range due to inadequate ventilation and filters and the space was used for storage.

The day came, and the firearms instructor and armorer Lt. Marv Eyer led us down into the range for our qualification. He was accompanied by our chief deputy, who sometimes would have a shoot-off against the top rookie for lunch as a prize. He was an excellent shot, and I understand he bought few rookies lunch.

I slipped my second box of smokers into the gear bag of a fellow rookie who could shoot very, very fast, reload fast and chew out the 10 ring. The results were wonderful. Those rounds made smoke a heck of a lot faster than the old fans could remove it. The course involved strings of fire of 12 to 18 rounds as fast as you could hit the target, and after the first stage, we couldn't even see the targets and could barely see out sights! Guys were coughing and hacking... it was hilarious! But neither the EL T or the Chief Deputy said anything, outside of murmuring about the inadequate fans.

We were blowing black snot out of our noses for 3 days. I never fessed up what I had done.

Sorry about the thread drift.

On the last stage of the last cowboy shoot of the year, my best friend was scraping for enough rounds to finish. A few Black Powder rounds got mixed in with the smokeless. The R.O. was surprised with the clouds and thunder the BP makes, but the targets rang loud enough to be heard!

The fouling can be greatly reduced by a 1/8" or so "cookie" of BP lube under the bullet (or in a hollow base). The extra 1/8" (or more) of space comes from loading the powder through a 30" drop tube. When there were several brands of Black Powder to choose from, some had far less fouling than any of them today! The was a powder mill in Louisiana during the Civil War, that their powder made almost no smoke and the fouling was negligible (It is sadly lost to us today!)

Ivan

Mike Venturino has written quite a few articles for Handloader
magazine about shooting black powder in various revolver rounds if
anyone is interested in further reading. I wouldn't want to try it in a
nice gun as I think it would be impossible to prevent some degree of
rusting. And Pyrodex isn't non corrosive, it's just less corrosive than
black powder and will rust a gun if it isn't well cleaned.

Having fired thousands of rounds of .38 SPL charged with Black Powder in SASS, I can tell you that black powder is easy to clean up with hot soapy water and you are no more prone to rust and corrosion that you are with smokeless if you are thorough.

Be sure to use a non-petroleum based lube on the bullets however, traditional lube becomes very difficult to clean.

I do take a Black Sharpie and color the primers so that these are easily spotted and not loaded thinking that they are smokeless.

Black powder is a hoot! My favorite cartridge is still the 44 WCF or better known as the 44-40!

Randy

It's quite interesting, original vs reloads (blackpowder).
My father and i did some crono testing with 7.5mm Swedish Nagant ammo
and home brewed made from .32-20 brass, and no mather how hard we stuffed
the brass with Swiss no1 it could not match the velocity from the originals.
Can't remember the figures but originals where significantly faster.
We pulled one apart and the powder was a solid thickwall "tube" inside the brass.

Hickok45 shot BP lead bullet 45 acp out of a stock glock. The cases eject but just barely. Big flash and lots of smoke, not much power.

"Only 6 rounds could be fired and the charge holes had to be thoroughly brushed out before the next 6 rounds could be loaded!"

As stated above, the big factor is the lube. Modern lube, intended for smokeless powder loads, cakes up quickly and can be hard and crusty. Proper BP lube leaves soft fouling.

Pyrodex is indeed corrosive. Its biggest selling point was the fact it wasn't classified as an explosive, like real black powder, and could be treated like smokeless powder when it comes to storage and shipping.

Muley Gil said:

As stated above, the big factor is the lube. Modern lube, intended for smokeless powder loads, cakes up quickly and can be hard and crusty. Proper BP lube leaves soft fouling.

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And from Ivan "The fouling can be greatly reduced by a 1/8" or so "cookie" of BP lube under the bullet (or in a hollow base). The extra 1/8" (or more) of space comes from loading the powder through a 30" drop tube."

In case some of you haven't noticed this, this "Ain't my first rodeo"! I have been shooting Black Powder in cartridge and muzzle loaders since about 1958! This was an exercise in simulating original loads and observing performance! Original B.P. loads in cartridges were lubricated with something closely resembling straight Beeswax, not a "Special B.P. lube" like S.P.G. The typical cast or swaged bullet does not have nearly enough lube capacity to make a significant difference! Since the charge was an important factor the remaining case volume after the charge was loaded, barely more than 1/8". There is no place for a "grease cookie" to be loaded, and, original factory loads did not have a grease cookie in any revolver cartridge, and simulating factory loads was the entire point of the exercise! Use a long "drop tube". What makes you think I didn't? In a case the size of a .38 Spl. this only allows for probably 1/64" or so to be gained, not 1/8" as can be gotten in a large rifle case like a .45-70, .50-70, and 11.15x60R, all of which I have loaded (and still do) with B.P. You are "Preaching to the choir".

It is true that many, if not most, swaged revolver bullets cleaar back into the 1870s were hollow-based. However, contrary to what most seem to believe, this does not provide any additional case capacity! It also was not filled with lubricant! It was to allow the bullet to expand to fill barrels of varying dimensions, think Minie' Ball! It also lengthens the bullet shank, which increases seating depth and bearing. As long as the bullet weight doesn't change, and the volume of the bullet ahead of (outside) the case because the OAL and nose profile are identical, the volume of the bullet inside the case will be identical, no matter the shape of the shank, hollow or cup-base, or whatever. X grains of Lead takes up the same volume, no matter what shape that Lead is formed to!

FWIW, over the past nearly 60 years I have loaded all the following with Black Powder. I am sure I have missed a couple:

.32 S&W
.32-20
.38 S&W
.44-40
.450 Revolver (Adams)
.45 Long Colt
9.4 mm Dutch Revolver (10mm Beaumont)
10.4mm Italian Revolver
.303 British (Originally a B.P. cartridge!)
10.4mm Vetterli
11.15x60R (11mm Mauser)
.45-70
.50-70
16 Ga. Shotgun

And, finally;
.38 Spl.

In all the thousands of rounds in these calibers the only cartridge I have had issues with fouling causing issues has been the .38 Spl.!

I feel safe in saying I have more varied experience loading Black Powder cartridge than, probably, any of you on the forum. I would bet that most of the "advice" given above was posted by people who "read it somewhere" and have no actual B.P. cartridge loading experience!

Alk8944 said:

In all the thousands of rounds in these calibers the only cartridge I have had issues with fouling causing issues has been the .38 Spl.!
I feel safe in saying I have more varied experience loading Black Powder cartridge than, probably, any of you on the forum. I would bet that most of the "advice" given above was posted by people who "read it somewhere" and have no actual B.P. cartridge loading experience!

Click to expand...

With all of your vast knowledge and experience I'm surprised
that you would even consider exposing yourself to the
possibility of insults to your intelligence by asking for advice
or even opinions about your posts. I'm also surprised that
with your obviously superior intellect and knowledge you
could think that there is something totally unique about the
38 spl case that differentiates it from all other ctgs if loaded
with black powder. And I have read a great many of your
posts on here and you obviously do have lots of experience
and knowledge. And so again I'm a little surprised that you
feel the need to tout this over and over on here with some
obvious anger behind it. Lighten up a bit Alk, be happy
you're so smart instead of mad at all those who didn't get
as lucky when the brains were being passed out.

You might look up the BP powder substitute .............

Blackhorn 209

said to be non-corrosive.

I had some blk powder substitute that came in a white bottle. It was called American Eagle or something like that. Anyways, when I shot it out of my .44 1858 it left very little to no residue in the cylinder at all. What was there virtually wiped out with a swab very easily. If I were hard up enough to have to load my .38 with BP I'd smear some BP grease on the face of the cylinder like you would with a BP revolver to keel that fouling soft so you could at least fire a couple of cylinders full before needing to brush them out.

Alk8944 said:

And from Ivan "The fouling can be greatly reduced by a 1/8" or so "cookie" of BP lube under the bullet (or in a hollow base). The extra 1/8" (or more) of space comes from loading the powder through a 30" drop tube."

In case some of you haven't noticed this, this "Ain't my first rodeo"! I have been shooting Black Powder in cartridge and muzzle loaders since about 1958! This was an exercise in simulating original loads and observing performance! Original B.P. loads in cartridges were lubricated with something closely resembling straight Beeswax, not a "Special B.P. lube" like S.P.G. The typical cast or swaged bullet does not have nearly enough lube capacity to make a significant difference! Since the charge was an important factor the remaining case volume after the charge was loaded, barely more than 1/8". There is no place for a "grease cookie" to be loaded, and, original factory loads did not have a grease cookie in any revolver cartridge, and simulating factory loads was the entire point of the exercise! Use a long "drop tube". What makes you think I didn't? In a case the size of a .38 Spl. this only allows for probably 1/64" or so to be gained, not 1/8" as can be gotten in a large rifle case like a .45-70, .50-70, and 11.15x60R, all of which I have loaded (and still do) with B.P. You are "Preaching to the choir".

It is true that many, if not most, swaged revolver bullets cleaar back into the 1870s were hollow-based. However, contrary to what most seem to believe, this does not provide any additional case capacity! It also was not filled with lubricant! It was to allow the bullet to expand to fill barrels of varying dimensions, think Minie' Ball! It also lengthens the bullet shank, which increases seating depth and bearing. As long as the bullet weight doesn't change, and the volume of the bullet ahead of (outside) the case because the OAL and nose profile are identical, the volume of the bullet inside the case will be identical, no matter the shape of the shank, hollow or cup-base, or whatever. X grains of Lead takes up the same volume, no matter what shape that Lead is formed to!

FWIW, over the past nearly 60 years I have loaded all the following with Black Powder. I am sure I have missed a couple:

.32 S&W
.32-20
.38 S&W
.44-40
.450 Revolver (Adams)
.45 Long Colt
9.4 mm Dutch Revolver (10mm Beaumont)
10.4mm Italian Revolver
.303 British (Originally a B.P. cartridge!)
11.15x60R (11mm Mauser)
.45-70
.50-70
16 Ga. Shotgun

And, finally;
.38 Spl.

In all the thousands of rounds in these calibers the only cartridge I have had issues with fouling causing issues has been the .38 Spl.!

I feel safe in saying I have more varied experience loading Black Powder cartridge than, probably, any of you on the forum. I would bet that most of the "advice" given above was posted by people who "read it somewhere" and have no actual B.P. cartridge loading experience!

Click to expand...

Were those BP charges by weight or volume?

muddocktor said:

That was very interesting and informative, Alk8944. I've often wondered what old cartridges such as the 38 Special, 45 Colt and 44 Russian would perform like when loaded with a snootful of good old black powder. Thanks for posting this up.

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45 Colt

The guns used are a Pietta (Heritage Big Bore) 4 3/4in, Cimarron Old Model P 5 1/2in, and a Uberti Old Model P 7 1/2in.

The load is 40 grns of FFFG (3F) Olde Eynsford under a 250grn PRS Big Lube bullet. All loads fired 10 feet from chrono.

4 3/4 Bbl Pietta:

1. 925
2. 903
3. 927
4. 923
5.934
Average 922.4

Cimarron 5 1/2 Bbl :

1. 1004
2. 967
3. 1048
4. 1070
5. 1047
Average 1027.2

Uberti 7 1/2 Bbl:

1. 1028
2. 1049
3. 1018
4. 1026
5. 1010
Average 1026.2

medic15al, that's interesting too, your 45 Colt data. Your data looks like from you using the 3 separate barrel length pistols that after around 5 1/2" barrel length you don't gain any more velocity. Of course that is 2 different pistols too, but still it's a data point to look at. I wonder what kind of velocities you would see out of a rifle in 45 Colt compared to the pistols with that load? Closed chamber versus open chamber and long barrel length as compared to the pistol barrels.

I too am curious what a rifle's velocity with these would be. Most likely I would see a bit more velocity in the longer barrel(s) with a 2FG load over a 3FG load.

Bit of a squeeze right now to get a 45 Colt chambered rifle, they are nice!

If I knew something about loading with BP, I could try loading up some 44 Mags with them and trying it out. Maybe I could try some of the smokeless substitutes instead of BP. I have a 6 1/2" barrel 629 Classic and also have a Browning B92 lever action rifle in 44 Mag, but don't have the slightest clue on what kind of lube to use or even how to clean that stuff out of my weapons after playing around. I do have some Hi Tek coated 240 SWC bullets I could play with though.