I was thinking of experimenting with light bullets in a Garand rifle. I have some 110 gr. Speer Spire points and was wondering about a load with IMR 4895 that will operate the action.

Justification - Spire points are CHEAPER.

I like to keep the velocity down as not to change the P.O.I.

I have two options . One with the the original gas plug and a plug with extra volume to allow standard 30-06 Springfield ammo to be used.

A minimum load of 50.5 grains is recommended in Speer 9 for a 110 gr bullet at 3010 fps. If you knock 100 fps or so off the velocity for operating the gas system that's about 2900 fps.

I've reduced loads with 4895 a LOT, but how much could I reduce this to get a velocity of about 2700 (The normal velocity for a Garand) and still operate the action?

I'm thinking of dropping the load to about 47 grains as a trial.

Any help would be appreciated.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Please just remember that lighter than recommend loads can be every bit as dangerous as overloads.I have loaded and shot 110gr Garand loads with out any mods to the gas system and they are ok but don't expect gilt edge accuracy.

In my library of loading manuals, most show a starting load for 110gr 30-06 for 3,000fps more or less but this is all data for bolt actions. The Lyman #49 recommends bullet weights of 150 to 168 grains and medium burn rate powders for the M-1 Garand. Won't say it can't be done but it doesn't look good to me for your project.

Velocity is not the only factor affecting point of impact.

Simply matching the velocity of a service load does not mean a 110 gr. spire point will impact the same as the original projectile.

You might search around some of the Garand forums to find possible light-bullet loadings developed by others. It might be difficult to find such a load which would allow the action to function reliably. One issue with Garands is that port pressures which are too high may result in a bent op-rod, which mitigates against using slow propellants.

My Garand loads closely mimic GI military loads with IMR 4895 or IMR 3031 and 150 or 172 grain bullets.

the Garand's action can be damged by using unsuitable powders & loads, due to the pressure curve being different than that used in the original GI ball loads that only was loaded with IMR 4064, IMR 4895 powders....

Some have reported okay loads with the variable gas plugs... but... Your rifle was made at least pre 1955 or so & possibly 15 years older than that... original parts of the proper type are getting harder to find & very expensive even if you can locate them... It would not be worth it to me to chance harming my IHC postage stamp or Type II NM using a load that is saving me just a few cents per bullet .......It is up to you, it's your rifle... but to me it's a foolish idea.

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be safe,enjoylife,journey well

Thanks everybody. All of this is well taken. I'll check the Garand forums to see what they say and get back.

4895 can be downloaded by a third (around 42 gr.) and I've shot those before for bunny poot loads out of my bolt action. We learned (just in time) that Garands aren't designed for full pressure Springfield loads (SURPRISE!!). I think I'll try it with the expanded gas plug in and if it doesn't operate the action, put the original gas plug in and try it. I doubt I could overpressure it that way. This is just a feasibility experiment and I hope within the ball park. If it hits the target we can see how to compensate.


The last thing I want to do is muck up a Garand.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

From another forum using 125 grain bullets:

Use the Sierra 125gr spitzer or the Speer 125gr hollow point "TNT" bullet. These are outstanding, low recoil loads for the 200yd offhand and sitting rapid fire National Match stages.
These are .30-06 loads for M1 Garands and other military rifles.
50.0gr H-322 for approx 2,950fps
52.0gr Accurate 2520 for approx 3,000fps
52.0gr IMR-4895 for approx 2970fps
52.0gr H-4895 for approx 2940fps
These loads are proven performers in match conditioned Garand rifles, but also group well in bolt action match and sporter rifles.

Buddy of mine bought one, he didn't load so he brought it out
and we tried several bullets. The lightest one we had any luck with was Speer 130gr HP. It was extremely accurate. We shot
everything from 100gr plinkers thru 165 match. The 110 Spire P
has been a disappointment to me more than once. I wanted to
use it in 30 Gibbs for varmints, it was explosive but wouldn't
group worth a nickel. The only rifle I ever had that liked them
was a Win 100 / 308. It shot 21/2" at 100, good enough for
deer gun.

Stay within the original M2 ball loads & the USGI armor piercing M1 Garand loads that always only used the IMR 4895 & IMR 4064 powders... most folks say the H-4895 duplicates is okay too...

Ignore those who use powder for loading Garand ammo, because they had a bunch of it..& proved okay to use in their Whifflepoofer Deluxe Rifle chambered in .30-06 by Mr. Bill Brownnose the noted gunsmith of a magazine article done 15 years ago...or in any other type rifle other than a USGI Garand....they were not designed to only work with ammo with a certain pressure curve...

In other words...it sure ain't getting easier to find the correct parts for a 60 year old fine rifle..... op rods.. especially.. they are one of the things torn up the worst by shooting improper loads in a Garand... bolt raceways & op-rod channel battering too, and both are damage to an irreplaceable receiver...

On the Culver Shooting Page, CSP.com... M1 Garand/M14 board and on the reloading board there.. seek out the advice of Maury Krupp, back a couple of years ago Maury took 2nd place in the CMP Western games... he was 69 years old, and shot a tuned .30-06 Garand, he lost 1st place by 2 points to a much younger military shooter who was using a tuned AR-15 Service rifle....

Maury has loaded & shot more ammo for a Garand in 40 plus years than anyone I know... He's probably the best expert on reloading for Garands that there is & is good people too. He also shoots the heck out of AR-15 service rifles too, listen & heed his advice on them too... tell him hey from me.

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be safe,enjoylife,journey well

It is your rifle and you can do as you please....da gimp is spot on in his suggestion to stay with M2 ball and equivalents.

Check the price of a new op rod....if you still need convincing. IMR 4895 is THE choice to replicate M2 and M72. A 150 flat base FMJ for M2 and if you can find them a 173 boat tail for M72

Randy

Hodgdon makes a BOLD statement that their H4895 can be
down loaded farther than any powder in this range !!

110 might work in your twist but it will have a lot of wind drift with the poor BC.......... along with a very short OAL, to add to bullet jump, to your barrel.

I could not get a 125 or 130 to do well in my test back in the 70's. with two M1's.

Good Luck.

I've owned several garands over the years the best $$$$ you can spend on them is for 1 of the adjustable gas plugs.

Schuster DCM Adjustable Gas Plug Wrench WWII-Style M1 Garand Steel

These things flat out work, I've used them in standard 30-06 garands and the 308 tanker garands.

With the adjustable gas plugs you can safely use anything from light loads with light bullets to heavy loads with heavy bullets. No more garand only loads.

they hope the Schuster's plugs work with no damage...... they do not offer to replace damaged rifles the last I knew... I have heard some good things on them by guys who built .35 Whelan & .35WhelanAI on their Garands for big bear/big moose rifles.. but they stayed with using IMR 4064 & IMR 4895 powders.. as I said in my first post, most Garand reloading experts, if not nearly all, say the H equivalent powders are ok too. Yup I am very protective of my Garands.....

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be safe,enjoylife,journey well

A lot of old timers used 125gr bullets for 100 yard reduced range matches because of lesser recoil.

I always ran 168gr or milsurp 172gr bullets in front of milsurp 4895. I still have about 25lbs of the milsurp that was purchased for $6/lb. Those were the days..................

Start your reloading low and work your way up until you either hit max or find the accuracy you want. Don't be surprised if you have to approach max before you get 100% function. If you stick to 4895 or 4064 there is no reason to use an adjustable gas plug.

The only bent op-rod I have ever seen was caused by a slam fire when a shooter used pistol primers during the Great Primer Famine of the mid 1990's.

I agree with da gimp. I had an M-1 rebuilt by Fulton Armory for our son when he graduated the United States Coast Guard Academy. They strongly recommend M2 Ball or equivalent to the best of my recollection.

Shot 110gr Sierra HP and 125gr SP out of my M1A and they did fine. At 100yds not enough change in POI from the 147gr FMJs to worry about changing sight in. Could hit clay pigeons with all three.

Don't blame you, most shooters don't change. I liked them because I could take the blinders off and use allot more powder/bullet combo's that the standard "you have to use this or bad things will happen/4895 or nothing/yada-yada-yada.

For those that want more out of their garands, that plug will bring you to the promised land. Accuracy is the huge improvement with the adjustable plugs. Being able to fine tune loads is huge and the ability to get the garand to cycle with loads that would never happen with the traditional setup is an added bonus.

Standard setup:
It's called timing, the gas block has a set hole to allow a specific about of pressure/gas back to operate the op rod. The op spring has to be a certain strength for everything to work correctly. The end result is a very narrow window the ammo has to fit into to make enough pressure to cycle the rifle but not enough to harm it. Then the rifle has to like that load or accuracy suffers or the op rod isn't just right or the op spring is a little weak. The end result is the timing is off enough to affect accuracy.

The adjustable plug:
Only a fool could damage a garand while using 1. I've always said firearms are not for everyone. If things like turning a screw are complicated or moving a switch (safety) is hard to understand then those people should avoid firearms. For people that know how to turn a screw, install the adjustable gas pug and turn the gas screw all the way out. Load and shoot a round. There you just made the garand into a single shot. Give the screw 1/2 turn in and shoot another round. Nothing?? Keep testing with 1/2 turns and shooting 1 shot at a time. You will get to the point that there will be enough gas to start to move the op rod/bolt. Another 1/2 turn and the rifle will cycle but the brass will be laying at your feet. Give the gas screw a 1/4 turn at that point and the spent brass will be laying in a pile 3ft away. Cave man simple for anyone that understands how a screw works.

Extremely hot loads, big deal!!! You can dial the rifle in so the action barely functions. Extremely light loads, absolutely!!! Heck take your favorite coated/cast bullet and load them to 1600fps using your favorite pistol powder and adjust the plug until the garand cycles flawlessly.

With the adjustable plugs you can reload for your garands for accuracy 1st Then simply adjust the rifle for function.

With standard garands you have to reload for proper cycling/function 1st then try to find an accurate load within the small window of that functioning load.

I do find it funny that it's doom and gloom to even think about having an adjustable gas system on a m1 garand. God forbid something might happen!!! But no one bats an eye if their on a m1a1/m14. Go figure!!!!

Then you got people like brownell's selling them and putting things like this in their ad for a sales description.

Vented steel design changes cycle time by letting you adjust the gas volume in the cylinder. Quick adjustment of vent size with integral set-screw; eliminates changing screws for different vent sizes. Reduces battering on op rod, bolt lugs, receiver and trigger group. Available for M1 Garand and M1A.

Gee, who would want to reduce battering of their op rods and other assorted pieces and parts????

I shot 110gr Spire points exclusively in an M1A using 37gr of Reloder 7.
Its performance was exceptional and the function was perfect.
But that`s .308 in a different rifle.
I always wondered how a similar load would work out in a .30 cal M1 but always stayed with 150s and 168s in my M1 Rifles.
Jim

From a source that I dare not mention:

The Garand match last year (Camp Perry) was won with 49 Grains of IMR 4895 and a 110 Sierra Varminter.

Very accurate in my Garand.
Didn't bend the op-rod or blow it up.

Use at your own discretion.

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-jwk-
US Army '72-'95

From what I have read, the op rod bending problem occurs only when using very slow powders such as 4831, 5010, etc.. It's not a problem with faster powders such as IMR 4895 and others similar to it when used to produce loads more or less equivalent to GI ammo ballistics. This is because the pressure from the faster powders drops more quickly, so the port pressure is safe for the op rod. The slower powders maintain a higher bore pressure longer and therefore produce a higher port pressure for the same bullet MV. This puts more load on the op rod, and can cause it to bend.

Personally, the only powders I have used in my Garand are 4895 and 3031. Both work well with 150 grain bullets. I have also used the 147 grain BT bullets for the 7.62 NATO, but those do not group as well. I have never attempted to work up light bullet loadings, but have considered doing that several times. In particular, I have about 500 jacketed hollow point bullets of 130 grains that might make good loadings for the M1.