If you read what one of THE FBI guys here wrote, the 10 was never loaded all that hot. Something like 950fps. It was never a super potent round. Certainly not what everyone on the internet claims

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Which is why they figured they could make the .40 from the same 10mm cartridge. I guess it wasn't good having more gun to shoot a weaker round. They could have continued with the lower 10mm round but it was only 3/4 of its potential out of a beefier gun. Whatever, it lost popularity rather than gain it, while a LOT of people on this forum won't carry anything but a .45.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Still tough to miss fast enough to win, regardless of caliber.

With this info I can go right into terminal testing. I've seen a recipe for cheap ballistic gelatin somewhere. And if I get the xtreme plated 165 grain jobs, I'll have to modify the noses to approximate an expanding round. Oh boy, have we got fun?

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

X-Treme offers a double plated 165 grain hollow point that I use in my 10mm loads. I don't use the HP bullet in the 40 because my "hot" loads are under 1200 fps and a HP bullet is not needed to shot cardboard or steel.

Assuming your discussing the 10mm short (40 S&W) loadings, here's one of my favorites:

Pistol: Para Ltd 40/6 / 5.0" Barrel
Caliber: 40 S&W
Bullet: X-Treme 165 gr. P-RNFP / 1.125" OAL
Powder / Charge: Accurate #7 / 9.2 grains (9.3 Max)
Primer: Federal 200
Brass:: A-USA
Chrono: Ave: 1160 fps ES: 33 SD: 12
Comment: Very little 40 S&W "Snap"

Suggestion: Spend some time here. Check out their methods and results. My 45 ACP carry load for the 3.0" 25 ounce 1911 is included and this data reinforced my tests as well as other available info.

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self...llistic-tests/

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Dave
SWCA #2465

I disagree. You may not get it to exactly equal to a .45 but if you increase the effectiveness of the 9mm to closer to that a .45, you have a better 9mm bullet.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Do all these things.. HPs at speeds as fast as you can(at reasonable pressaures in the 9) and you get a 9 to almost equal a 45. Do the same things with the 45 auto(+P). You still have a superior round This question has been asked by we shooters since the early 1900s. The question is STILL being asked. Why?? because with physics not having changed if you can make the 9 a great defensive round..the 45 can still be made better. BTW they'll both kill the heck out of you. Working as a paramedic we had a few shooting victims who lived after being shot in deadly parts of their bodies with the 9mm. Only had one 45 victim and he WAS DRT. My wife carries a 9mm but it is loaded with 147 gr Fed Hydrashocks. In my opinion about as good as it gets with factory loads commonly available..and they are subsonic. I also carry them in my 639 and 1911 9mm. If I carry a 45(most of the time) I also carry a big ol hollowpoint 230 gr Win Silvertip or a Rem HP. I also have carried 22 revolvers and sitting next to me on the table is a 686 4 inch gun. I do prefer the 45 mainly because I have carried one since before I was 18. Carried 2 while in SE Asia all those years ago. I do not ever want to be shot with anything. In centerfire handgun I do not carry ball ammo.

It's all about improving what is out there. The 9mm, being a high pressure round in a closed barrel, has the power to get a big bullet moving. And most have a 3"-4" barrel, especially service weapons. If we were talking about .38 snubs, I'd think it was bunk, because they can barely get a 158 grain bullet up to the needed velocity and whatever you stack on that isn't going to improve anything. It's topped out.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Actually the facts are that the 9mm IS tapped out. You can't raise pressures on it appreciably. You can only get so much velocity out of a heavier bullet. Heavy bullet HP in a 9 is really only about a 150 gr. The 45 can be pushed to the same velocity close to a 1000 ft per with a 230 gr HP bullet. Do what you may and say what you will... get the same bullet reactions at the terminal end and the 45 will be superior. The only reason I see for the 9mm to be used so much by police forces is because it is about the most recoil that the people that must use it to defend themselves and us can haldle. On an average...and they can get more rounds in the handgun..but I have had 14 round 45s too. The 9 has the bad reputation it does because it earned it. But the 45's reputation is also a bit overhyped...but only with the ball ammo. It is still a much bigger hole..apples to apples

I'm not looking for higher pressure. The data tables say that a bullet that is somewhat heavier than commonly available 9mm bullets can be shot at a similar velocity to a .45. That's more lead to expand and more weight for penetration IF the bullet is designed to expand at that velocity. This has already been done with the 'short barrel' Speer bullets. They are designed to expand at the velocities a .38 snub can achieve.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

What's the objective of your exercise? Are you looking to merely replicate the ballistic performance of a 45 ACP bullet using a hypothetical 9mm bullet or are you trying to approximate the effect on the human body of being shot with a 45 ACP using a 9mm bullet?

The Nyclad was an idea that didn't sell. With excellent coatings people that longed for the now rare Nyclads can simulate them with a soft HPSWC. Sometimes, a few other things need to change before something is accepted.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

I'm saying that a 9mm can approach the (mostly unargued) effectiveness of a .45 with some tweaking.

There are tons of people on this forum that feel underarmed with anything but a .45. The .45 has proven itself as a good man stopper for over 100 years whether it used expanding bullets or FMJs. I believe that a 9mm with some alterations could do almost as well as an FMJ .45 because the velocity is the same, the expanded diameter is the same. The weight is less but more than a typical 9mm for extra penetration without over penetration and extra material for big expansion. It's shown in the video that a 158 grain Gold Dot can get 14" penetration with an expanded diameter at least that of a .45 FMJ.

I'm looking for a similar test with a .45 FMJ for a penetration comparison.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

I own a Para Long Slide double stack 45 ACP. 16 Rounds of 45 ACP anything should win all the above arguments. There are 6 hi-cap mags to go with it, if 91 rounds can't win the street war, we should all stay home.

Than there is the P16-40 that gives 17 rounds in the gun + 16 round mags. Coming in last, is the Para P18-9 MM with 19 rounds in the gun + 18 round mags.

Try that with your 5-shot J-frame. At least you won't be walking tilted over!

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S&WHF 366

There are 9mm pistols with a capacity of 20 +1. CZ makes one. I do have two J frames and I figure (hope) that 5 shots will do in any scrape I would get into, besides being very carryable.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Simplky: start with a 4

Shoot that 9mm 147 at 1200 FPS from your 357 Sig.
Expansion should not be an issue.

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-jwk-
US Army '72-'95

Do what I do... carry with Liberty Civil Defense rounds, 2000 fps, 450 ft lbs....blows a 3.5" hole and doesn't penetrate past 12". All with a 50 gr. Copper bullet.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well, there's something new for you. it must be a small rail gun.

One that really made even me look askance is the one with the bullet shaped like an impeller to increase hydrostatic pressure shock.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

The 9mm Luger round is questionable in stopping and killing power. But most of the negative stuff I read comes from the sandbox in close quarters when you want to dispatch the bad guy quickly. It takes multiple rounds.
The 9mm will never match the stopping power of the 45acp. I feel when in doubt if I second guess myself I ccw the 357,41,44 magnum. When your life depends on stopping power offer the bad guy the very best.

Don't underestimate the 1911/45acp loaded with those Speer 200gr jhp soup bowel hollow points. I did a lot of wet sand testing before I pick a round to carry.

Except you are talking ball ammo. A jhp hitting 60cal. Doesnt really matter where it started.
FWIW, wet sand testing tells you little about a bullets ability to expand in flesh. Wetpack or bal gel are really the only semi valid testing medium. Even water isnt correct.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

I read that the idea behind the Gold Dots was a semi wadcutter with a huge hole they referred to as the 'flying ashtray'.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

What someone said about using the 357 Sig. You can get the velocity you need with heavier bullets. But with the original 9mm..agin the laws of physics kinda interfere. The case is so small it is hard to generate the velocities with a heavy bullet in the 9. If it was such a GREAT idea don't you think the ammo companies would have already done it. To get a good heavy bullet in the 9 to work the way you want it to..some things would have to be changed. I'm not saying it can't be done..I'm just saying it hasn't been done by the people who could make money out of the idea. And if the 45 is as bad as so many people want to think it is...why compare the 9 to it?? I have some +P rated 45 factory ammo that does what you all are trying to get the 9mm to do in spades. Physics still raises it's head again with the increase in recoil factor. If I have to shoot the 9 it is going to be with a factory 147 gr HP like the Federal or something with the Gold Dot(a very good bullet IMO). Seriously..if what we all might like to have with the 9mm was possible don't you think it would already have been done? Either it isn't safely possible or not economically feasible. The 10mm is a good round as is the 40 S&W...but they were developed for a perceived problem that was flawed from the beginning. So here we are today with two stepchildren. Gonna make another? Just trying to be the devil's advocate.

If the FBI standardized BB pellet air guns tomorrow we would get a big promotional work about how the low recoil and large capacity would make it the theoretical best choice out there, and gets rid of all that risk of under penetration. If they switched to 500 S&W tomorrow, we'd get a big press statement about its superior killing power and ability to pierce the armor or terrorists and hard barriers. The FBI's real reasoning won't be released, you'll get a press release that satisfies people. The new round is going to be perfect, all others are poor choices. So those statements aren't worth as much as one would think.

Besides, the 9mm Luger fanbois, man on this forum, sat around and called the FBI terrible, terrible names for decades after replacing the 9mm Luger. 9mm bois hated the FBI, called them no nothings, desk jockeys, said the choice to go 40 was political, backwards, stupid. The MOMENT they went back to 9mm, suddenly the bois said "The FBI is the world's most prominent law enforcement agency,and their word is FACT", a turnover that took about all of 1/2 of a second. You can't have ti both ways.

When the 9mm was doing better in the junks science 20% gel tests of the 70's and early 80's, gel tests were irrefutable FACT. The second that they fixed the gel tests to 10% with better criteria and other calibers did better than 9mm, then suddenly "Those are just a bunch of idiots with jello blocks". You can't have it both ways.

When 9mm was touting superior expansion with high velocity early hollow points, its high expansion was a sign of its vast superiority. Now that 45 ACP hollow points in slow 230 grain offerings are offering superior damage in greater expansion and better, repeatable penetration, suddenly terminal ballistics doesn't matter and superior wound channels are worthless. Imagine that.

The 9mm is inferior terminal ballistics wise, that's fact. Optimized, the heavier bullet at same energy will end up pushing a wider faced expanded bullet deeper. Just like they've been doing since the big hit job to make 45 look bad to push a new caliber nobody wanted decades ago, 9mm doesn't actually stand on any one point to make a point, it just keeps changing goal posts, outright lying, junk science, and most tellingly, contradicting itself every 2 seconds when results change. Anyone who does that is not being objective and scientific, they are just trying to push a bias against all reason.

When the 5.7 was going to replace the 9mm, suddenly we got to see this whole thing play out again: the 5.7 was better than the 9mm because it had lower recoil, higher capacity, better hard barrier penetration, and of course, by the very logic of the 9mm crowd used to replace the 45 ACP. Suddenly instead of old GI's defending the 45 on the basis of heavier bigger caliber is better, the 9mm people, now the old guys in military and law enforcement, were the old fogies shaking their canes at the kids and using the same exact arguments the 45 people used against the 9mm. it was a repeat of the 70's all over again, and the same young bucks were now the old stalwarts. What irony. What a joke.

45 fan bois are pukish people. But no rabid fan base in this field is worse the 9mm bois. Little better than North Korea is best Korea nonsense; the 9mm has the BEST terminal performance, even as good or better than 357 magnum or 45 ACP, 9mm has BEST penetration, 9mm has BEST capacity, of course, when smaller calibers can do those better, sundenly a slower heavier 9mm is better. Why? Because of any real proof or reason? No. Because 9mm is best. BEST. No matter what. And we can rationalize it no matter what. Because 9mm is BEST. Repeat that. Again and again.

Kanew paddle wrote on here some time that 115 +p+ was just as good as 357 Magnum. That was when I realized that there is no objectivity or honesty in any of this. 9mm is BEST. You can't argue against that. its inferior ballistics are now superior. The 9mm magically hast he recoil of 9mm low target loads yet the power of a +P+ load. Absolute truth doesn't matter. We'll just take every other caliber and magically negate its actual ability while magically stretching the ability of the cartridge we like. We close the very real gaps. Magically. By just saying close enough, then implying the gaps don't matter, or say "even with the gaps its better anyways". Because 9mm is BEST. And no amount of anything can change our preconceived notion, because we only come to argue and win over people our preconceived notion.

I come to boards for a lot of good information, which there is a lot of. But there is a lot of this is a big farce, and you can only come here to chuckle. Indeed, these boards amuse me greatly.

I didn't say it was a GREAT idea, but it is an interesting idea. And yeah, I wonder the same things. Has anybody not gone that way because they've tried it and it doesn't work, or just figured it was a stupid idea, or that it just wouldn't sell. The things is that I 'think' it would work, but I don't really know. This wouldn't be a stepchild caliber, it's a plain, common, cheap 9mm. And the Sig has been out there but it's not in common use. I wonder what it is about it? Too expensive? People don't want a bottleneck pistol cartridge? The round is as big as a .40? Maybe that has something to do with it. it may be a compressed load. But yeah, that little 9mm case fills up a LOT faster than a .38. I One thing I have in my favor is that bigger bullets take less powder than their smaller, faster velocity counterparts.

What's not in my favor is that in the small case, the pressure may build exponentially and really draw the line. The 158 grain that is already manufactured, isn't a common or popular round, so that indicates that this wouldn't be all that popular, which is probably why companies don't produce this round.

Anyway, if it proves to be useless, impractical or impossible at least we'll know.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

This part of the post is the most relevant. I think what was proposed is possible. Is it a worthwhile idea. Maybe not. With all the niche companies and the big ones too there would be loads commercially available. The small 9mm case and the length of the magazines conspire against heavy long bullets in the caliber. The debate on the 9mm and 45 has been raging for decades(well maybe not raging). If it were economically and physically possible it would already be done. Develop a new case and a new gun or two do some realistic work and you could get the 9mm to almost equal the 45 loaded with the same style bullets at about the same velocity. Again physics raises it's ugly head. Remember the Winchester 9mm mag?? it could maybe be used as a basis for this. But then again..they made the 45 Win Mag at the same time. I'm not saying the 9mm is useless. I'm just saying anything you do to the 9mm to make it more effective and "equal" the 45 can also be done to the 45 to make it a "better" round. The debate will still continue. Part of the biggest problems facing both is the fact that because of the Geneva Convention militaries have to use FMJs. The 9 will never be able to equal anything larger with those restrictions. But then again..the 45 is hampered by the same rules. Which raises some questions about modern warfare I think I want to address in a different post

I didn't say it would be as good or better than a .45, but the philosophy behind the idea of the .45 obviously works and works well and maybe that same philosophy would make a 9mm CLOSER to what a .45 does that would make it a more effective round than it already is.

I guess I'm a little different from most reloaders. I do have pet rounds that I've loaded repeatedly, but a lot of my time is testing new rounds just to see how they shoot. It is also economical, and I use .30 110 gr carbine bullets in my rifle because they are cheap as dirt. I'm on a tight budget and can't buy a gun for every kind of shooting I want to do.

Believe me, I'm not planning on giving up my 124 XTPs any time soon unless something is proven all the way to doing a great job in the field. Even that is a choice, as would probably be any new combo that came in the picture, many people wouldn't buy it, as the 158 gr. 9mm isn't a hot seller. Like many other people, I compromise and try to stay away from 115 and 147 grain jhps unless for a special purpose. Though I'm a middle of the road guy, my alter ego wants to explore the edges.

I've made extremely reduced 30-06 because they are fun as the dickens to shoot, and an extremely soft 9mm to introduce my wife to the 9mm. In that case was a heavy (147 grain) bullet for various reasons, including operating the action. I was suggested to me to try reduced (well under the book) loads of Acc #7. Besides working like a champ in producing a soft and reliable round, it was an amazingly accurate combination. People might say, well go get a 6mm rifle but that isn't getting the full range of potential out of any gun. It doesn't cost me anything to make the kinds of rounds I want to shoot out of any gun.

As has been said, yeah, the 9mm may well be self limiting. But I want find out where that limit is in getting a heavy projectile to go at least 830 fps out of a typical 9 mm gun without overloading it beyond the range that it was designed for. It may not even be a '+P' type round.

I'd like to thank everybody again who participated, lent ideas and gove thoughts on possible limitations, even acceptance by the industrly. I think we've beat it as far as we can until we get some data. If you have a brainstorm, though, don't hesitate to bring it up. =8^ )

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

I found reloading data for 165 grain X-treme bullets:

Power pistol - 4.2 grain at 34,686 psi (estimated) for 851 fps

Accurate #7 - 5.3 grains at 32,683 psi (estimated) for 894 fps

This suggests that a slightly heavier bullet with Acc #7 powder could get the 830 fps velocity that I'm looking for.

The doesn't address the TYPE of bullet that would easily expand at that velocity.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

The little bullet going fast, big bullet going slow argument started in 1896 after the Army replaced the 1873 single action Peacemakers in 45 Colt with the new double action Model 1896 Colt 38. Due to failures to stop, the Army re-issued the 45 Col Peacemakers. The results from 1904 Thompson-LeGarde tests and the 1907 Pistol Trails reinforced the big bullet performance. (PM me with your email if you'd like copies of these historical documents. Warning: The Thompson-LeGarde Tests are gruesome.)

An interesting side note, the attached 1933 Bureau of Investigation letter supports the little bullet theory. Of course to write this letter Special Agent J.M. Keith had to ignore the results of the Thompson-LeGarde tests and the Pistol Trails as well as the 1911 45 ACP World War I track record. And he cites bullet weight in grams, not grains. Might want to convert 158 grams and 200 grams into pounds.

After 40 years the ammo manufacturers have developed 9mm cartridges that meet the 1975 (updated in 1985) National Institute of Justice's Relative Incapacitation Index findings. A study based on hypothetical assumptions and a computer-generated man and rated the 115-grain, 9 mm FMJ round twice as effective as a 230-grain .45 ACP FMJ.

So what's this all mean. You can find lots of information to support your side of the 121 year argument... and carry the round you trust and are most comfortable with.

Attached Files

	Handgun Stopping Power.pdf (38.4 KB, 34 views)
	1933 Bureau of Investigation .38 Spl Letter.pdf (1.01 MB, 34 views)

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Dave
SWCA #2465

Well not unlike global warming computer models, you can configure the model to achieve a desired result. Years of military conflict i believe shows 9mm ball to be slightly inferior to 45, not twice as effective. Computer models alWays seem to ignore history. Totally agree with your final statement.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

... The proof is only in the pudding. If it works, great. If not back to the old drawing screen.

PS: I haven't use drawing board in 30 years. You couldn't drag me back to one.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

All the debate and dispute over caliber, bullet weight and such reminds me of a quote by Allen Iverson........

"When you are not practicing, someone else is getting better."

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Ret. LE, FA Instr, S&W Armorer

The simple answer to the OP's question is, you can't.

Special Agent J.M. Keith's 1933 Bureau of Investigation letter cites bullet weight in grams, not grains. This means his 158 gram 38 Special round would weigh in at just over one third of a pound (0.3483268 lbs.) and his 200 gram 45 APC bullet will weigh almost half a pound (0.44 lbs.).

Based upon the FBI's firearms/ammo selection track record, many people, myself included, don't have much faith in their decisions.

And what's sad is, what the FBI does is copied by hundreds, if not thousands, of local law enforcement agencies.

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Dave
SWCA #2465

I'd say a 1/2 lb. bullet at 850 fps would knock the stuffings out of somebody and would knock the stuffings out of the shooter too.

You really caught me off guard. I was casually reading through your post and WHAAAAAA????

One thing the FBI considers that doesn't much apply to us is car door penetration. Even with good data you have to take it with a grain of rock salt.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

I have always liked my 9mm's better than my 45's.
The 9 is lighter so I can carry more of them and hide them better. And the gun the shoots them is smaller.
Oh, and they cost less.

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Some assembly required..

Groo here
How to make a 9mm match a 45 acp?
The answer is ------ It depends!!!!!!!
What do you want it to do?
Damage the same amount of tissue?
A deep driving bullet that opens to at least .45 in.
Stop an attacker?
Much different mechanics.
The way many stops happen is by nerve damage.[AKA PAIN]
The 45 causes more pain because it damages more nerves.
The most in skin, next muscle, a little in organs ,next to none in bone.
The 45 acp driver a .45 hole through all.
A 9mm starts at .355, then a controlled opening to max opening.
As the bullet is rotating at many 1000 rpm the largest opening pettel
will control the damage till the rotation slows down.
The 9mm will damage [touch] fewer nerves than the nonexpanding 45.
Less shock [AKA PAIN} but the expanding 9mm may damage more
tissue [AKA BLEEDING].
Pain convinces you to stop, bleeding make you faint.
This is why the 357 125gr SJHP remington load worked so well.
The speed at impact caused the nose to blow off [With in the first 1/2 in or so] the base ,now a WC of about 100gr , would continue on causing
a deep wound.
Pain AND bleeding.
To make a 9mm work like a 45, load it like a 357.......

Your first and second points are the answer. Use the increased mass to penetrate and have plenty of material to blow up to at least .45" dia. as long as the bullets are made to expand at 840 fps.

I've got the 165 gr bullets and I want to form a meplat both to reduce overall length and provide a flat for drilling a hollow point.

165 grains may be the max, though I havn't proved that. The reason is that with the recommended Acc#7 load, I think I'm going to have to compress the load. Heavier bullet need less powder, true, but this is a BIG bullet and I doubt any heavier will be serviceable. I do have the Power Pistol powder that I haven't tried to seat the bullet with. It may be better than the Acc 7 powder.

Problem: These 'Xtreme' Bullets are also extremely HARD. Their site says 18 brin. I tried to flatten the nose of one of the bullets but it didn't work at all. Like trying to flatten a steel bullet.

Well, I'm going to make up a few and take them to the range for velocity testing at least.

PS. I just had a barnstorm. I was getting ready to prime the cases and I thought that maybe I can reduce the volume of the powder by using magnum primers.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

My P227 SAS with Underwood 45 +P. I doubt any 9mm even in an AR hits like this. Now if I could just hit what I aim at. 😜

Attached Images

IMG_1018.JPG (70.4 KB, 28 views)

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Just hanging with my dogs

The way that I look at it is it like dropping a baseball or a bowling ball on your foot.

One has mass and a huge amount of knock down power.....

the smaller comes with 15 to 19 energy pills.

Either will ruin your day......... but no the 9mm 158gr bullet is
the only bullet short enough for a correct OAL in its short case.
This means it will never get close to a 200gr plus bullet that a .45 can swallow.
Close but no touch down.........
but I still love my 147gr HST in my C9 !!

....some 165 grain bullets that I can start with. The are plated X-treme RN. I like the profile of the nose and even though the bullets are LONG, I think I can get an appropriate amount of Power Pistol or Acc #7 in them and keep within the 1.65" max. One thing in my favor is that the heavier bullets use LESS powder than light bullets. I also have the option of compressed loads. Also, that I can flatten the nose into a meplat enough to drill them to HPs to get some idea of terminal performance, which will also shorten the length some. As soon as I get a chance, I'll post some pictures and get to the range for some velocity data. Boy, am I excited to have a project like this. Later I'll make some gelatin and get the results from that.

Signed, Your Ever Optimistic Experimenter.

PS: The question remains. Which pistols will such bullets actually operate in?

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Just to add my two bits. I solved this problem with a S&W 40c. 40 S&W in a 3.5" barrel. 11 rounds topped up and 155 grain JHPs at 1120fps. Loads are easily attainable, accurate and controllable. Greater capacity than a 45 and carries in a 9mm sized handgun. Love my M&P 45c but it is my house gun with a TLR3 light attached. The M&P40c goes with me when I'm out and about.

I wish somebody would shoot something with anything....
A water filled jug or ballistic gel block or box of soaked newsprint !
Shoot something with the new and improved load so we can see what is going to happen.....the suspense is getting me !

I'm making the bullets right now. I just stopped to double check my reloading data. I decided to use magnum primers and drop the loads back .2 grains. While I'm doing this, I'm thinking when this week I can get out to the range. I have a Chrono but I don't have ballistics gel (yet) and I'll have to find something semi solid to shoot. However, I have not yet been able to modify the bullets to the flat nose hollow point that I'm thinking of, because the bullets are so dam hard!!!


I'll just have to do the best I can. I concede on one point. I doubt that I'll be able to do a round any heavier than the 165 grain. The case capacity does seem to be the limiting factor. I would still like to theoretically figure out IF a heavier bullet would could fit the action of a 9mm and still attain the required velocity.

You guys have got me on the .40 being probably better at what I'm proposing performance wise. I like 9mms for many reasons and I'm going to test the water to milk what can out of a 9mm.

Disclaimer: At NO time during this discussion did I suggest that any bullet design could replace placement as the most important factor in an SD situation. Getting better placement is up to the individual learning and practicing. I'm working on a hardware problem.

I was working on triple taps (about 5 sets) the other day at five yards with my new Sig bringing the gun up from the bench height. Starting shooting while trying to find the front sight is a real trip. Though my patterns were loose, all shots went in the 'dead zone', so I hope I can improve on placement and distance with practice.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

[QUOTE=gwpercle;139465202]I wish somebody would shoot something with anything.... /QUOTE]

How about something that bleeds?

Many years ago I lived out of town in an area surrounded by jack rabbits. This provided an excellent opportunity to test factory and hand loaded ammo from handguns and rifles.

Here's my summary of experiences with three handgun cartridges:

The 9x19mm rounds (including HPs) never stopped one unless it was a head shot. I believe they were all killed with solid body hits but they didn't know it and ran far before dying.

About 20% of the time body shots with 230 grain GI round ball 45 ACP would bowl them over and they would get up and run a ways to die.
Body shots with a 200 H&G #68 bullet at 950 fps and Sierra's 185 grain at 1000 fps were impressive.

Any 357 mag load proved devastating.

I realize these results may be sacrilege for some 9x19mm proponents but it is what happened with the ammo available at the time.

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Dave
SWCA #2465

GT said they could size the 38 cal. 130gr lead HP down to..........

.356 or .357 dia. if needed.

They might do the same with their lead 160gr bullet if asked?
Being a 2-2-X lead mix, it should mushroom..........
if you want a lead bullet.

At under 900fps I don't think it really matters.

Thanks. That sounds a lot closer than what I tested. I guess that's for phase II.

A soft lead bullet would be great because I'm not pushing the velocity. I'll look into it.

Well I guess I'll have to shoot up those 226 Xtreme bullets that I have left. They are great bullets so it's not a problem to me.

UPDATE: I just looked at the GT website and I really like what I see. There is a .38 caliber 165 gr HP SWC that if it could be sized down would be ideal. I could size them myself, but I'm not set up for it.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Any further questions?

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Eccentric old coot

That looks like a Jug Johnson Special.

The old "Delta Rocket System" approach.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"