Actually the facts are that the 9mm IS tapped out. You can't raise pressures on it appreciably. You can only get so much velocity out of a heavier bullet. Heavy bullet HP in a 9 is really only about a 150 gr. The 45 can be pushed to the same velocity close to a 1000 ft per with a 230 gr HP bullet. Do what you may and say what you will... get the same bullet reactions at the terminal end and the 45 will be superior. The only reason I see for the 9mm to be used so much by police forces is because it is about the most recoil that the people that must use it to defend themselves and us can haldle. On an average...and they can get more rounds in the handgun..but I have had 14 round 45s too. The 9 has the bad reputation it does because it earned it. But the 45's reputation is also a bit overhyped...but only with the ball ammo. It is still a much bigger hole..apples to apples
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FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45
- Thread starter rwsmith
- Start date
hdwhit
Member
What's the objective of your exercise? Are you looking to merely replicate the ballistic performance of a 45 ACP bullet using a hypothetical 9mm bullet or are you trying to approximate the effect on the human body of being shot with a 45 ACP using a 9mm bullet?
OP
The Nyclad.....
The Nyclad was an idea that didn't sell. With excellent coatings people that longed for the now rare Nyclads can simulate them with a soft HPSWC. Sometimes, a few other things need to change before something is accepted.
The Nyclad was an idea that didn't sell. With excellent coatings people that longed for the now rare Nyclads can simulate them with a soft HPSWC. Sometimes, a few other things need to change before something is accepted.
OP
I'm not proposing pressure change.....
I'm not looking for higher pressure. The data tables say that a bullet that is somewhat heavier than commonly available 9mm bullets can be shot at a similar velocity to a .45. That's more lead to expand and more weight for penetration IF the bullet is designed to expand at that velocity. This has already been done with the 'short barrel' Speer bullets. They are designed to expand at the velocities a .38 snub can achieve.
I'm not looking for higher pressure. The data tables say that a bullet that is somewhat heavier than commonly available 9mm bullets can be shot at a similar velocity to a .45. That's more lead to expand and more weight for penetration IF the bullet is designed to expand at that velocity. This has already been done with the 'short barrel' Speer bullets. They are designed to expand at the velocities a .38 snub can achieve.
I own a Para Long Slide double stack 45 ACP. 16 Rounds of 45 ACP anything should win all the above arguments. There are 6 hi-cap mags to go with it, if 91 rounds can't win the street war, we should all stay home.
Than there is the P16-40 that gives 17 rounds in the gun + 16 round mags. Coming in last, is the Para P18-9 MM with 19 rounds in the gun + 18 round mags.
Try that with your 5-shot J-frame. At least you won't be walking tilted over!
Than there is the P16-40 that gives 17 rounds in the gun + 16 round mags. Coming in last, is the Para P18-9 MM with 19 rounds in the gun + 18 round mags.
Try that with your 5-shot J-frame. At least you won't be walking tilted over!
OP
I'm saying....
I'm saying that a 9mm can approach the (mostly unargued) effectiveness of a .45 with some tweaking.
There are tons of people on this forum that feel underarmed with anything but a .45. The .45 has proven itself as a good man stopper for over 100 years whether it used expanding bullets or FMJs. I believe that a 9mm with some alterations could do almost as well as an FMJ .45 because the velocity is the same, the expanded diameter is the same. The weight is less but more than a typical 9mm for extra penetration without over penetration and extra material for big expansion. It's shown in the video that a 158 grain Gold Dot can get 14" penetration with an expanded diameter at least that of a .45 FMJ.
I'm looking for a similar test with a .45 FMJ for a penetration comparison.
I'm saying that a 9mm can approach the (mostly unargued) effectiveness of a .45 with some tweaking.
There are tons of people on this forum that feel underarmed with anything but a .45. The .45 has proven itself as a good man stopper for over 100 years whether it used expanding bullets or FMJs. I believe that a 9mm with some alterations could do almost as well as an FMJ .45 because the velocity is the same, the expanded diameter is the same. The weight is less but more than a typical 9mm for extra penetration without over penetration and extra material for big expansion. It's shown in the video that a 158 grain Gold Dot can get 14" penetration with an expanded diameter at least that of a .45 FMJ.
I'm looking for a similar test with a .45 FMJ for a penetration comparison.
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OP
There are 9mms...
There are 9mm pistols with a capacity of 20 +1. CZ makes one. I do have two J frames and I figure (hope) that 5 shots will do in any scrape I would get into, besides being very carryable.
There are 9mm pistols with a capacity of 20 +1. CZ makes one. I do have two J frames and I figure (hope) that 5 shots will do in any scrape I would get into, besides being very carryable.
OP
I think, that is I hope.....
I hope that the extra expansion from a heavier bullet that is designed to 'blow up' at that velocity will make up for bore. And pretty much limiting this to close range, SD work makes the math much easier.
I think in a battle situation it should have the effective range of a .45, being that it's moving at the same velocity and it's only proportioned a little longer than a typical bullet. i think that the long 'waterline' should actually help. That's a good point though. If this is viable, it would be cool to work out the SD and BC. Most importantly I expect that it would be effective in practical, real life encounters.
I should be able to work out a profie fairly easily. And make it look like a Gold Dot in the nose.
I hope that the extra expansion from a heavier bullet that is designed to 'blow up' at that velocity will make up for bore. And pretty much limiting this to close range, SD work makes the math much easier.
I think in a battle situation it should have the effective range of a .45, being that it's moving at the same velocity and it's only proportioned a little longer than a typical bullet. i think that the long 'waterline' should actually help. That's a good point though. If this is viable, it would be cool to work out the SD and BC. Most importantly I expect that it would be effective in practical, real life encounters.
I should be able to work out a profie fairly easily. And make it look like a Gold Dot in the nose.
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It's hard to believe that anyone who is a serious handgunner
still wants to argue the supposed vast superiority of the 230
FMJ .45 at the lumbering velocity of 830 fps over a warm 124
gr 9mm at 1200 fps. Numerous tests, including real world
shooting results indicate that there is little difference between
the two. So you hear and read all the time "where people say"
fill in the blank space here. Where you're mistaken here is in
the quality of your reading material. What isn't nonsense? The
9mm is the NATO handgun round and is likely to be so for
some time to come. Shot placement and penetration trumps
bullet dia 100% of the time. Shoot what you like and shoot
well.
OP
I guess I'm just being silly....
I thought that I made a pretty good case in spite of the pulpy gun magazines that I read. 'True Detective' is a main source of any ideas that I may have. It is highly criticizes the 9mm NATO round.
Sorry, but I like to think and experiment. I was a mechanical designer in a research laboratory. Curiosity, questioning and experimenting are part of my nature. My reloading experience has been mostly experimental. Even if it flops, at least I will be able to say that I found out.
I never said that changes in the bullet would render shot placement less important. My idea has extra weight for adequate penetration as well as making a wound channel that is close to .6" diameter.
And yeah, NATO use a 9mm 124 gr. round all of my 9mm are loaded with it. I'm not arguing with its effectiveness, just wondering if it could be made even more effective, at least for close up work.
I thought that I made a pretty good case in spite of the pulpy gun magazines that I read. 'True Detective' is a main source of any ideas that I may have. It is highly criticizes the 9mm NATO round.
Sorry, but I like to think and experiment. I was a mechanical designer in a research laboratory. Curiosity, questioning and experimenting are part of my nature. My reloading experience has been mostly experimental. Even if it flops, at least I will be able to say that I found out.
I never said that changes in the bullet would render shot placement less important. My idea has extra weight for adequate penetration as well as making a wound channel that is close to .6" diameter.
And yeah, NATO use a 9mm 124 gr. round all of my 9mm are loaded with it. I'm not arguing with its effectiveness, just wondering if it could be made even more effective, at least for close up work.
Qc Pistolero
Member
Well,your question certainly did raise quite a few opinions;I bet you've reached your goal;having the subject developped.If I may add my 2 cents worth of rethorics about it...
While the debate 9mm vs .45ACP began a few decades ago,I think that both party having its advocates, we are far from seing the end of it.I remember reading about it in the early '70s and it still will get feelings flowing like hot lava!But while I admit that the expanding bullets have improved from a long way back,bullet expansion is still an ''if''thing.I mean,I shoot a .355 projectile and hope it will end up .452 or larger That speaks for itself.
Funny how people get their feelings tickled when the 9mm vs .45 question is raised but I bet that the same question slightly modified like .38 Spl+P vs .45 wouldn't probably get 33% of the same feedback..38 Spl and 9mm=same bullet diameter(.355 vs .357 I don't think it matters much).While the 9 will beat the heck out of and regular .38Spl load,the latter catches up quite rapidly with heavier bullets(158+gr).
Guess I might have opened another can of worms here....have I?
Qc
While the debate 9mm vs .45ACP began a few decades ago,I think that both party having its advocates, we are far from seing the end of it.I remember reading about it in the early '70s and it still will get feelings flowing like hot lava!But while I admit that the expanding bullets have improved from a long way back,bullet expansion is still an ''if''thing.I mean,I shoot a .355 projectile and hope it will end up .452 or larger That speaks for itself.
Funny how people get their feelings tickled when the 9mm vs .45 question is raised but I bet that the same question slightly modified like .38 Spl+P vs .45 wouldn't probably get 33% of the same feedback..38 Spl and 9mm=same bullet diameter(.355 vs .357 I don't think it matters much).While the 9 will beat the heck out of and regular .38Spl load,the latter catches up quite rapidly with heavier bullets(158+gr).
Guess I might have opened another can of worms here....have I?
Qc
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OP
A few good worms don't make the whole can bad.
In the video the 147 grain Gold Dot did expand about that big, so I'd expect that a 165 grain 'Gold Dot' could do the same thing if constructed for the job like the 'short barrel 135 gr. Gold Dots do. I see that they make and have data for a 180 gr. .38 bullet. And if what you say about heavier bullets approaching 9mm effectiveness MAY hold true for 9mm approaching the .45. So that is encouraging enough to work on this for a while.Rpg
Member
Simplky: start with a 4
venomballistics
Member
I hope that the extra expansion from a heavier bullet that is designed to 'blow up' at that velocity will make up for bore. And pretty much limiting this to close range, SD work makes the math much easier.
I think in a battle situation it should have the effective range of a .45, being that it's moving at the same velocity and it's only proportioned a little longer than a typical bullet. i think that the long 'waterline' should actually help. That's a good point though. If this is viable, it would be cool to work out the SD and BC. Most importantly I expect that it would be effective in practical, real life encounters.
I should be able to work out a profie fairly easily. And make it look like a Gold Dot in the nose.
BC isn't a real factor until significant range variations are part of the equation ... contact to 25Y really isn't significant as the velocity loss is within the extreme spread of most pistol loads.
Sectional density is a huge player in governing penetration.
I found three different formulas that I rendered in C++ software years ago that supposedly tried to determine the best load for a given application.
Taylor Knockout was one and two other systems ...
they may agree on things like mass, SD, velocity and bore being part of the equation, but none agree on how they are to be structured into the equation. As such, they give three different opinions.
in actual testing, one can see how they all do try to conjure up a straight answer but really end up forming an over intellectualized caliber war.
Its not unlike a Ford vs Chevy debate ...
best way to end one is to drive away in a Ferrari
While I favor 45, if the difference between them really becomes make or break ... you really need a rifle
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TAROMAN
US Veteran
Shoot that 9mm 147 at 1200 FPS from your 357 Sig.
Expansion should not be an issue.
Expansion should not be an issue.
How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45
Do what I do... carry with Liberty Civil Defense rounds, 2000 fps, 450 ft lbs....blows a 3.5" hole and doesn't penetrate past 12". All with a 50 gr. Copper bullet.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Do what I do... carry with Liberty Civil Defense rounds, 2000 fps, 450 ft lbs....blows a 3.5" hole and doesn't penetrate past 12". All with a 50 gr. Copper bullet.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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BigBill
Absent Comrade
The 9mm Luger round is questionable in stopping and killing power. But most of the negative stuff I read comes from the sandbox in close quarters when you want to dispatch the bad guy quickly. It takes multiple rounds.
The 9mm will never match the stopping power of the 45acp. I feel when in doubt if I second guess myself I ccw the 357,41,44 magnum. When your life depends on stopping power offer the bad guy the very best.
Don't underestimate the 1911/45acp loaded with those Speer 200gr jhp soup bowel hollow points. I did a lot of wet sand testing before I pick a round to carry.
The 9mm will never match the stopping power of the 45acp. I feel when in doubt if I second guess myself I ccw the 357,41,44 magnum. When your life depends on stopping power offer the bad guy the very best.
Don't underestimate the 1911/45acp loaded with those Speer 200gr jhp soup bowel hollow points. I did a lot of wet sand testing before I pick a round to carry.
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What someone said about using the 357 Sig. You can get the velocity you need with heavier bullets. But with the original 9mm..agin the laws of physics kinda interfere. The case is so small it is hard to generate the velocities with a heavy bullet in the 9. If it was such a GREAT idea don't you think the ammo companies would have already done it. To get a good heavy bullet in the 9 to work the way you want it to..some things would have to be changed. I'm not saying it can't be done..I'm just saying it hasn't been done by the people who could make money out of the idea. And if the 45 is as bad as so many people want to think it is...why compare the 9 to it?? I have some +P rated 45 factory ammo that does what you all are trying to get the 9mm to do in spades. Physics still raises it's head again with the increase in recoil factor. If I have to shoot the 9 it is going to be with a factory 147 gr HP like the Federal or something with the Gold Dot(a very good bullet IMO). Seriously..if what we all might like to have with the 9mm was possible don't you think it would already have been done? Either it isn't safely possible or not economically feasible. The 10mm is a good round as is the 40 S&W...but they were developed for a perceived problem that was flawed from the beginning. So here we are today with two stepchildren. Gonna make another? Just trying to be the devil's advocate.
If the FBI standardized BB pellet air guns tomorrow we would get a big promotional work about how the low recoil and large capacity would make it the theoretical best choice out there, and gets rid of all that risk of under penetration. If they switched to 500 S&W tomorrow, we'd get a big press statement about its superior killing power and ability to pierce the armor or terrorists and hard barriers. The FBI's real reasoning won't be released, you'll get a press release that satisfies people. The new round is going to be perfect, all others are poor choices. So those statements aren't worth as much as one would think.
Besides, the 9mm Luger fanbois, man on this forum, sat around and called the FBI terrible, terrible names for decades after replacing the 9mm Luger. 9mm bois hated the FBI, called them no nothings, desk jockeys, said the choice to go 40 was political, backwards, stupid. The MOMENT they went back to 9mm, suddenly the bois said "The FBI is the world's most prominent law enforcement agency,and their word is FACT", a turnover that took about all of 1/2 of a second. You can't have ti both ways.
When the 9mm was doing better in the junks science 20% gel tests of the 70's and early 80's, gel tests were irrefutable FACT. The second that they fixed the gel tests to 10% with better criteria and other calibers did better than 9mm, then suddenly "Those are just a bunch of idiots with jello blocks". You can't have it both ways.
When 9mm was touting superior expansion with high velocity early hollow points, its high expansion was a sign of its vast superiority. Now that 45 ACP hollow points in slow 230 grain offerings are offering superior damage in greater expansion and better, repeatable penetration, suddenly terminal ballistics doesn't matter and superior wound channels are worthless. Imagine that.
The 9mm is inferior terminal ballistics wise, that's fact. Optimized, the heavier bullet at same energy will end up pushing a wider faced expanded bullet deeper. Just like they've been doing since the big hit job to make 45 look bad to push a new caliber nobody wanted decades ago, 9mm doesn't actually stand on any one point to make a point, it just keeps changing goal posts, outright lying, junk science, and most tellingly, contradicting itself every 2 seconds when results change. Anyone who does that is not being objective and scientific, they are just trying to push a bias against all reason.
When the 5.7 was going to replace the 9mm, suddenly we got to see this whole thing play out again: the 5.7 was better than the 9mm because it had lower recoil, higher capacity, better hard barrier penetration, and of course, by the very logic of the 9mm crowd used to replace the 45 ACP. Suddenly instead of old GI's defending the 45 on the basis of heavier bigger caliber is better, the 9mm people, now the old guys in military and law enforcement, were the old fogies shaking their canes at the kids and using the same exact arguments the 45 people used against the 9mm. it was a repeat of the 70's all over again, and the same young bucks were now the old stalwarts. What irony. What a joke.
45 fan bois are pukish people. But no rabid fan base in this field is worse the 9mm bois. Little better than North Korea is best Korea nonsense; the 9mm has the BEST terminal performance, even as good or better than 357 magnum or 45 ACP, 9mm has BEST penetration, 9mm has BEST capacity, of course, when smaller calibers can do those better, sundenly a slower heavier 9mm is better. Why? Because of any real proof or reason? No. Because 9mm is best. BEST. No matter what. And we can rationalize it no matter what. Because 9mm is BEST. Repeat that. Again and again.
Kanew paddle wrote on here some time that 115 +p+ was just as good as 357 Magnum. That was when I realized that there is no objectivity or honesty in any of this. 9mm is BEST. You can't argue against that. its inferior ballistics are now superior. The 9mm magically hast he recoil of 9mm low target loads yet the power of a +P+ load. Absolute truth doesn't matter. We'll just take every other caliber and magically negate its actual ability while magically stretching the ability of the cartridge we like. We close the very real gaps. Magically. By just saying close enough, then implying the gaps don't matter, or say "even with the gaps its better anyways". Because 9mm is BEST. And no amount of anything can change our preconceived notion, because we only come to argue and win over people our preconceived notion.
I come to boards for a lot of good information, which there is a lot of. But there is a lot of this is a big farce, and you can only come here to chuckle. Indeed, these boards amuse me greatly.
Besides, the 9mm Luger fanbois, man on this forum, sat around and called the FBI terrible, terrible names for decades after replacing the 9mm Luger. 9mm bois hated the FBI, called them no nothings, desk jockeys, said the choice to go 40 was political, backwards, stupid. The MOMENT they went back to 9mm, suddenly the bois said "The FBI is the world's most prominent law enforcement agency,and their word is FACT", a turnover that took about all of 1/2 of a second. You can't have ti both ways.
When the 9mm was doing better in the junks science 20% gel tests of the 70's and early 80's, gel tests were irrefutable FACT. The second that they fixed the gel tests to 10% with better criteria and other calibers did better than 9mm, then suddenly "Those are just a bunch of idiots with jello blocks". You can't have it both ways.
When 9mm was touting superior expansion with high velocity early hollow points, its high expansion was a sign of its vast superiority. Now that 45 ACP hollow points in slow 230 grain offerings are offering superior damage in greater expansion and better, repeatable penetration, suddenly terminal ballistics doesn't matter and superior wound channels are worthless. Imagine that.
The 9mm is inferior terminal ballistics wise, that's fact. Optimized, the heavier bullet at same energy will end up pushing a wider faced expanded bullet deeper. Just like they've been doing since the big hit job to make 45 look bad to push a new caliber nobody wanted decades ago, 9mm doesn't actually stand on any one point to make a point, it just keeps changing goal posts, outright lying, junk science, and most tellingly, contradicting itself every 2 seconds when results change. Anyone who does that is not being objective and scientific, they are just trying to push a bias against all reason.
When the 5.7 was going to replace the 9mm, suddenly we got to see this whole thing play out again: the 5.7 was better than the 9mm because it had lower recoil, higher capacity, better hard barrier penetration, and of course, by the very logic of the 9mm crowd used to replace the 45 ACP. Suddenly instead of old GI's defending the 45 on the basis of heavier bigger caliber is better, the 9mm people, now the old guys in military and law enforcement, were the old fogies shaking their canes at the kids and using the same exact arguments the 45 people used against the 9mm. it was a repeat of the 70's all over again, and the same young bucks were now the old stalwarts. What irony. What a joke.
45 fan bois are pukish people. But no rabid fan base in this field is worse the 9mm bois. Little better than North Korea is best Korea nonsense; the 9mm has the BEST terminal performance, even as good or better than 357 magnum or 45 ACP, 9mm has BEST penetration, 9mm has BEST capacity, of course, when smaller calibers can do those better, sundenly a slower heavier 9mm is better. Why? Because of any real proof or reason? No. Because 9mm is best. BEST. No matter what. And we can rationalize it no matter what. Because 9mm is BEST. Repeat that. Again and again.
Kanew paddle wrote on here some time that 115 +p+ was just as good as 357 Magnum. That was when I realized that there is no objectivity or honesty in any of this. 9mm is BEST. You can't argue against that. its inferior ballistics are now superior. The 9mm magically hast he recoil of 9mm low target loads yet the power of a +P+ load. Absolute truth doesn't matter. We'll just take every other caliber and magically negate its actual ability while magically stretching the ability of the cartridge we like. We close the very real gaps. Magically. By just saying close enough, then implying the gaps don't matter, or say "even with the gaps its better anyways". Because 9mm is BEST. And no amount of anything can change our preconceived notion, because we only come to argue and win over people our preconceived notion.
I come to boards for a lot of good information, which there is a lot of. But there is a lot of this is a big farce, and you can only come here to chuckle. Indeed, these boards amuse me greatly.
OP
That's what I decided.....
I came to the same conclusion about the Miami shoot out. It started tremendous caliber wars that ended up waffling between at least three cartridges when what the agents really needed was a rifle.
Its not unlike a Ford vs Chevy debate ...
best way to end one is to drive away in a Ferrari
While I favor 45, if the difference between them really becomes make or break ... you really need a rifle
I came to the same conclusion about the Miami shoot out. It started tremendous caliber wars that ended up waffling between at least three cartridges when what the agents really needed was a rifle.
