FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45

[rwsmith]

Interesting......

Do what I do... carry with Liberty Civil Defense rounds, 2000 fps, 450 ft lbs....blows a 3.5" hole and doesn't penetrate past 12". All with a 50 gr. Copper bullet.


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Well, there's something new for you. it must be a small rail gun.

One that really made even me look askance is the one with the bullet shaped like an impeller to increase hydrostatic pressure shock.

 

[Nevada Ed]

. I believe that a 165 gr. bullet or maybe slightly heavier would be able to do this. ( per #1 post )

Actually the 158gr plated RN is the largest bullet that fits in the 9mm case with a maximum seating of .300", if used.

Some 165gr bullets are .733" in length and need 1.185" OAL for safe case pressures.
Plus I don't see where the little 9mm case would gain that much with the added 10grs of weight.

Then there is getting the lead soft enough and the jacket thin enough to expand at 850fps out of a 4" barrel or less.

I am waiting to see how the 158gr Fiocchi does, if used enough or put to the gel test and posted on youtube.

 

[alwslate]

'True Detective' is a main source of any ideas that I may have. It is highly criticizes the 9mm NATO round.
Sorry, but I like to think and experiment. I was a mechanical designer in a research laboratory. Curiosity, questioning and experimenting are part of my nature.
And yeah, NATO use a 9mm 124 gr. round all of my 9mm are loaded with it. I'm not arguing with its effectiveness, just wondering if it could be made even more effective, at least for close up work.

True detective? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and
assume you're joking If you want to use your design
experience to make 9mm ball more effective for close up
work then then learn from history and the Government military
ammo designers around the world. Create a 9mm 124 gr FMJ
design that tumbles in soft tissue quicker than the current
design. A 124 gr 9mm FMJ bullet is a good bit longer than
.45" I do believe.

 

[fredj338]

The 9mm Luger round is questionable in stopping and killing power. But most of the negative stuff I read comes from the sandbox in close quarters when you want to dispatch the bad guy quickly. It takes multiple rounds.
The 9mm will never match the stopping power of the 45acp. I feel when in doubt if I second guess myself I ccw the 357,41,44 magnum. When your life depends on stopping power offer the bad guy the very best.

Don't underestimate the 1911/45acp loaded with those Speer 200gr jhp soup bowel hollow points. I did a lot of wet sand testing before I pick a round to carry.

Except you are talking ball ammo. A jhp hitting 60cal. Doesnt really matter where it started.
FWIW, wet sand testing tells you little about a bullets ability to expand in flesh. Wetpack or bal gel are really the only semi valid testing medium. Even water isnt correct.

 

[fredj338]

I came to the same conclusion about the Miami shoot out. It started tremendous caliber wars that ended up waffling between at least three cartridges when what the agents really needed was a rifle.

Or just shoot better under stress. Itwas as much a training/skill failure as 9mm bullet failure.

 

[fredj338]

. I believe that a 165 gr. bullet or maybe slightly heavier would be able to do this. ( per #1 post )

Actually the 158gr plated RN is the largest bullet that fits in the 9mm case with a maximum seating of .300", if used.

Some 165gr bullets are .733" in length and need 1.185" OAL for safe case pressures.
Plus I don't see where the little 9mm case would gain that much with the added 10grs of weight.

Then there is getting the lead soft enough and the jacket thin enough to expand at 850fps out of a 4" barrel or less.

I am waiting to see how the 158gr Fiocchi does, if used enough or put to the gel test and posted on youtube.

The 38sp+p with 158gr lswchp is an acceptably fighting round. Putting the same design into a 9mm would yield slightly less vel, so not seeing how it could improve on something like the 147gr hst +p currently made in 9mm. I'm still in favor of a good 124gr jhp at 1250fps. If the bullet is designed well. It will reach desired penetration with decent 50-60cal expansion.

 

[S&W HE]

The little bullet going fast, big bullet going slow argument started in 1896 after the Army replaced the 1873 single action Peacemakers in 45 Colt with the new double action Model 1896 Colt 38. Due to failures to stop, the Army re-issued the 45 Col Peacemakers. The results from 1904 Thompson-LeGarde tests and the 1907 Pistol Trails reinforced the big bullet performance. (PM me with your email if you'd like copies of these historical documents. Warning: The Thompson-LeGarde Tests are gruesome.)

An interesting side note, the attached 1933 Bureau of Investigation letter supports the little bullet theory. Of course to write this letter Special Agent J.M. Keith had to ignore the results of the Thompson-LeGarde tests and the Pistol Trails as well as the 1911 45 ACP World War I track record. And he cites bullet weight in grams, not grains. Might want to convert 158 grams and 200 grams into pounds.

After 40 years the ammo manufacturers have developed 9mm cartridges that meet the 1975 (updated in 1985) National Institute of Justice's Relative Incapacitation Index findings. A study based on hypothetical assumptions and a computer-generated man and rated the 115-grain, 9 mm FMJ round twice as effective as a 230-grain .45 ACP FMJ.

So what's this all mean. You can find lots of information to support your side of the 121 year argument... and carry the round you trust and are most comfortable with.

 

[fredj338]

The little bullet going fast, big bullet going slow argument started in 1896 after the Army replaced the 1873 single action Peacemakers in 45 Colt with the new double action Model 1896 Colt 38. Due to failures to stop, the Army re-issued the 45 Col Peacemakers. The results from 1904 Thompson-LeGarde tests and the 1907 Pistol Trails reinforced the big bullet performance. (PM me with your email if you'd like copies of these historical documents. Warning: The Thompson-LeGarde Tests are gruesome.)

And interesting side note, the attached 1933 Bureau of Investigation letter supports the little bullet theory. Of course to write this letter Special Agent J.M. Keith had to ignore the results of the Thompson-LeGarde tests and the Pistol Trails as well as the 1911 45 ACP World War I track record. And he cites bullet weight in grams, not grains. Might want to convert 158 grams and 200 grams into pounds.

After 40 years the ammo manufacturers have developed 9mm cartridges that meet the 1975 (updated in 1985) National Institute of Justice's Relative Incapacitation Index findings. A study based on hypothetical assumptions and a computer-generated man and rated the 115-grain, 9 mm FMJ round twice as effective as a 230-grain .45 ACP FMJ.

So what's this all meammn. You can find lots of information to support your side of the 121 year argument... and carry the round you trust and are most comfortable with.

Well not unlike global warming computer models, you can configure the model to achieve a desired result. Years of military conflict i believe shows 9mm ball to be slightly inferior to 45, not twice as effective. Computer models alWays seem to ignore history. Totally agree with your final statement.

 

[rwsmith]

I MAY....

. I believe that a 165 gr. bullet or maybe slightly heavier would be able to do this. ( per #1 post )

Actually the 158gr plated RN is the largest bullet that fits in the 9mm case with a maximum seating of .300", if used.

Some 165gr bullets are .733" in length and need 1.185" OAL for safe case pressures.
Plus I don't see where the little 9mm case would gain that much with the added 10grs of weight.

Then there is getting the lead soft enough and the jacket thin enough to expand at 850fps out of a 4" barrel or less.

I am waiting to see how the 158gr Fiocchi does, if used enough or put to the gel test and posted on youtube.

I'll be looking forward to that. I MAY stop short of 165, I mainly want a heavier bullet than is out there. I just figure that it needs to do 830 or better. And yeah, COAL and bullet depth are big consideration. I'll probably seat them out as much as possible until I get a handle on what's going on. And if Fiochi has a 158 I'd like to look at it myself, because it may save some incremental steps before I get to the UNKNOWN.

I worked 14 hours today trying to replace front doors to the point where I could secure them. Not much time for dreaming and testing today.

 

[rwsmith]

Whether it' aided by a computer or not....

Well not unlike global warming computer models, you can configure the model to achieve a desired result. Years of military conflict i believe shows 9mm ball to be slightly inferior to 45, not twice as effective. Computer models alWays seem to ignore history. Totally agree with your final statement.

... The proof is only in the pudding. If it works, great. If not back to the old drawing screen.

PS: I haven't use drawing board in 30 years. You couldn't drag me back to one.

 

[armorer951]

All the debate and dispute over caliber, bullet weight and such reminds me of a quote by Allen Iverson........

"When you are not practicing, someone else is getting better."

 

[rwsmith]

What someone said about using the 357 Sig. You can get the velocity you need with heavier bullets. But with the original 9mm..agin the laws of physics kinda interfere. The case is so small it is hard to generate the velocities with a heavy bullet in the 9. If it was such a GREAT idea don't you think the ammo companies would have already done it. To get a good heavy bullet in the 9 to work the way you want it to..some things would have to be changed. I'm not saying it can't be done..I'm just saying it hasn't been done by the people who could make money out of the idea. And if the 45 is as bad as so many people want to think it is...why compare the 9 to it?? I have some +P rated 45 factory ammo that does what you all are trying to get the 9mm to do in spades. Physics still raises it's head again with the increase in recoil factor. If I have to shoot the 9 it is going to be with a factory 147 gr HP like the Federal or something with the Gold Dot(a very good bullet IMO). Seriously..if what we all might like to have with the 9mm was possible don't you think it would already have been done? Either it isn't safely possible or not economically feasible. The 10mm is a good round as is the 40 S&W...but they were developed for a perceived problem that was flawed from the beginning. So here we are today with two stepchildren. Gonna make another? Just trying to be the devil's advocate.

I didn't say it was a GREAT idea, but it is an interesting idea. And yeah, I wonder the same things. Has anybody not gone that way because they've tried it and it doesn't work, or just figured it was a stupid idea, or that it just wouldn't sell. The things is that I 'think' it would work, but I don't really know. This wouldn't be a stepchild caliber, it's a plain, common, cheap 9mm. And the Sig has been out there but it's not in common use. I wonder what it is about it? Too expensive? People don't want a bottleneck pistol cartridge? The round is as big as a .40? Maybe that has something to do with it. it may be a compressed load. But yeah, that little 9mm case fills up a LOT faster than a .38. I One thing I have in my favor is that bigger bullets take less powder than their smaller, faster velocity counterparts.

What's not in my favor is that in the small case, the pressure may build exponentially and really draw the line. The 158 grain that is already manufactured, isn't a common or popular round, so that indicates that this wouldn't be all that popular, which is probably why companies don't produce this round.

Anyway, if it proves to be useless, impractical or impossible at least we'll know.

 

[sodacan]

The simple answer to the OP's question is, you can't.

 

[Skeet 028]

But yeah, that little 9mm case fills up a LOT faster than a .38. I One thing I have in my favor is that bigger bullets take less powder than their smaller, faster velocity counterparts.

What's not in my favor is that in the small case, the pressure may build exponentially and really draw the line. The 158 grain that is already manufactured, isn't a common or popular round, so that indicates that this wouldn't be all that popular, which is probably why companies don't produce this round.

Anyway, if it proves to be useless, impractical or impossible at least we'll know.

This part of the post is the most relevant. I think what was proposed is possible. Is it a worthwhile idea. Maybe not. With all the niche companies and the big ones too there would be loads commercially available. The small 9mm case and the length of the magazines conspire against heavy long bullets in the caliber. The debate on the 9mm and 45 has been raging for decades(well maybe not raging). If it were economically and physically possible it would already be done. Develop a new case and a new gun or two do some realistic work and you could get the 9mm to almost equal the 45 loaded with the same style bullets at about the same velocity. Again physics raises it's ugly head. Remember the Winchester 9mm mag?? it could maybe be used as a basis for this. But then again..they made the 45 Win Mag at the same time. I'm not saying the 9mm is useless. I'm just saying anything you do to the 9mm to make it more effective and "equal" the 45 can also be done to the 45 to make it a "better" round. The debate will still continue. Part of the biggest problems facing both is the fact that because of the Geneva Convention militaries have to use FMJs. The 9 will never be able to equal anything larger with those restrictions. But then again..the 45 is hampered by the same rules. Which raises some questions about modern warfare I think I want to address in a different post

 

[rwsmith]

I'm not really indulging in caliber wars......

I didn't say it would be as good or better than a .45, but the philosophy behind the idea of the .45 obviously works and works well and maybe that same philosophy would make a 9mm CLOSER to what a .45 does that would make it a more effective round than it already is.

I guess I'm a little different from most reloaders. I do have pet rounds that I've loaded repeatedly, but a lot of my time is testing new rounds just to see how they shoot. It is also economical, and I use .30 110 gr carbine bullets in my rifle because they are cheap as dirt. I'm on a tight budget and can't buy a gun for every kind of shooting I want to do.

Believe me, I'm not planning on giving up my 124 XTPs any time soon unless something is proven all the way to doing a great job in the field. Even that is a choice, as would probably be any new combo that came in the picture, many people wouldn't buy it, as the 158 gr. 9mm isn't a hot seller. Like many other people, I compromise and try to stay away from 115 and 147 grain jhps unless for a special purpose. Though I'm a middle of the road guy, my alter ego wants to explore the edges.

I've made extremely reduced 30-06 because they are fun as the dickens to shoot, and an extremely soft 9mm to introduce my wife to the 9mm. In that case was a heavy (147 grain) bullet for various reasons, including operating the action. I was suggested to me to try reduced (well under the book) loads of Acc #7. Besides working like a champ in producing a soft and reliable round, it was an amazingly accurate combination. People might say, well go get a 6mm rifle but that isn't getting the full range of potential out of any gun. It doesn't cost me anything to make the kinds of rounds I want to shoot out of any gun.

As has been said, yeah, the 9mm may well be self limiting. But I want find out where that limit is in getting a heavy projectile to go at least 830 fps out of a typical 9 mm gun without overloading it beyond the range that it was designed for. It may not even be a '+P' type round.

I'd like to thank everybody again who participated, lent ideas and gove thoughts on possible limitations, even acceptance by the industrly. I think we've beat it as far as we can until we get some data. If you have a brainstorm, though, don't hesitate to bring it up. =8^ )

 

[rwsmith]

Well somebody has been here...

I found reloading data for 165 grain X-treme bullets:

Power pistol - 4.2 grain at 34,686 psi (estimated) for 851 fps

Accurate #7 - 5.3 grains at 32,683 psi (estimated) for 894 fps

This suggests that a slightly heavier bullet with Acc #7 powder could get the 830 fps velocity that I'm looking for.

The doesn't address the TYPE of bullet that would easily expand at that velocity.

 

[Nevada Ed]

Right now I can only find three 165gr factory loadings.

Double Tap: 165gr JHP at +/- 900fps depending on...... (Midway)

Freedom Munitions: 165gr RN at a published 800fps.

United Nations ammo: 165gr ball, 850fps c/o a 5" barrel, but.....
ammo comes in a GI can of 1,000.

For a quick test, the Freedom RN might be the way to go, for
your pistol.

The main thing with the 165gr bullet is its ogive and over all length,
which has a lot of bearing on what the OAL can be and if it will work in your pistol and magazine.

 

[S&W HE]

Special Agent J.M. Keith's 1933 Bureau of Investigation letter cites bullet weight in grams, not grains. This means his 158 gram 38 Special round would weigh in at just over one third of a pound (0.3483268 lbs.) and his 200 gram 45 APC bullet will weigh almost half a pound (0.44 lbs.).

Based upon the FBI's firearms/ammo selection track record, many people, myself included, don't have much faith in their decisions.

And what's sad is, what the FBI does is copied by hundreds, if not thousands, of local law enforcement agencies.

 

[rwsmith]

You think that report is faulty?

Special Agent J.M. Keith's 1933 Bureau of Investigation letter cites bullet weight in grams, not grains. This means his 158 gram 38 Special round would weigh in at just over one third of a pound (0.3483268 lbs.) and his 200 gram 45 APC bullet will weigh almost half a pound (0.44 lbs.).

Based upon the FBI's firearms/ammo selection track record, many people, myself included, don't have much faith in their decisions.

And what's sad is, what the FBI does is copied by hundreds, if not thousands, of local law enforcement agencies.

I'd say a 1/2 lb. bullet at 850 fps would knock the stuffings out of somebody and would knock the stuffings out of the shooter too.

You really caught me off guard. I was casually reading through your post and WHAAAAAA????

One thing the FBI considers that doesn't much apply to us is car door penetration. Even with good data you have to take it with a grain of rock salt.

 

[Amp]

I have always liked my 9mm's better than my 45's.
The 9 is lighter so I can carry more of them and hide them better. And the gun the shoots them is smaller.
Oh, and they cost less.