Picked up some Ranier plated 38 bullets. Sort of a swc style hp. Load in mind is 158 gr bullet with 5 gr Unique Powder. Question is how much crimp? I've heard that a tight crimp will "peel the plating off". No crimping groove so planned to seat with shoulder flush with case end like I do the Speer swaged swchp. Never tried coated so any suggestions or hints will be appreciated.
Crimping Plated Bullets?
- Thread starter Eddietruett
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I put a lite crimp on my plated bullets.
I have over crimped them before by quite a bit when setting up a die. When I pulled the bullets there was a deep grove in the bullets but no signs of breaking thru the platting. I think you would really have to over do it to cause damage.
I have over crimped them before by quite a bit when setting up a die. When I pulled the bullets there was a deep grove in the bullets but no signs of breaking thru the platting. I think you would really have to over do it to cause damage.
I use Berry and found that with some of them (specifically a 200 gr SWC .45), a stout taper crimp while seating was necessary to keep them from setting back in the feed cycle. Apparently, the plated bullet has less friction with the case than lead or jacketed. I guess it depends upon how thick your bullet supplier plates their product.
I've pulled a couple in various calibers and found a deep crimp, but no exposure of the core.
I've pulled a couple in various calibers and found a deep crimp, but no exposure of the core.
If they are roll crimped too tight it can cut their plating enough for the plating to come off in the barrel throat. Another round shoved down the pipe will plate the pipe with that copper. I can only imagine what multiples would do.
I would check the pipe after every round for a while.
I would check the pipe after every round for a while.
fredj338
Member
Are you loading 0.451" or 0.452"? A plated bullet is a lead bullet with a thin copper plating, so it is really more like a lead bullet & should be 0.001" larger than jacketed.
Yes, over crimping can damage the plating enough that during the high RPM spinning down the bbl, it can break off & accuracy goes to hell & you will get leading as well. Seen this many times on close targets where guys over crimp. You'll find little plating frags stuck in the paper & groups look more like patterns, even at 21ft.
With 5.0grs of Unique and a 158gr plated bullet..............
you will need some type of crimp to keep the bullets from walking, since it is near a maximum loading for a 38 case.
you will need some type of crimp to keep the bullets from walking, since it is near a maximum loading for a 38 case.
hdwhit
Member
I agree with H30, a light crimp on plated bullets is appropriate.
Like with any other change in components, you should follow the advice in the reloading manuals and drop back to minimum load, load a few cartridges and then function fire them before moving the load higher.
If you're like me and don't get to the range that often, you can load up, say five or ten rounds at minimum and then go up by 0.1 or 0.2 grains at a time loading five or ten each time putting them in clearly labeled containers abd then when you get to the range start with the lightest and work up until you see problems or reach maximum with no problems.
Like with any other change in components, you should follow the advice in the reloading manuals and drop back to minimum load, load a few cartridges and then function fire them before moving the load higher.
If you're like me and don't get to the range that often, you can load up, say five or ten rounds at minimum and then go up by 0.1 or 0.2 grains at a time loading five or ten each time putting them in clearly labeled containers abd then when you get to the range start with the lightest and work up until you see problems or reach maximum with no problems.
gwpercle
Member
If they have a cannelure around the bullet , a light roll grimp, just enough to barely dig into the little cannelure indentations.
Plated seldom have a crimp groove for a heavy crimp.
If the bullets are smooth sided , a taper crimp is used , just enough to keep the bullets from walking out.
Gary
Plated seldom have a crimp groove for a heavy crimp.
If the bullets are smooth sided , a taper crimp is used , just enough to keep the bullets from walking out.
Gary
robert1804
Member
I shoot lots of Rainier, Berry's and Xtreme plated in revolver and auto. I only taper crimp all of them, mainly to ease loading into revolvers. Case tension is the thing needed to prevent pulling or set-back. I have collected enough sizing and expander dies, including undersize sizers to get good case tension for everything I load. For 38 and 357, any sizer will do. I've found almost all expanders are too large for plated bullets. I took a Lyman M type expander and took it down half a thousandth with a drill and some abrasive. !58 plated stay put even loaded to 1100-ish fps in 357, even in a 4" model 66.
I use the same approach in auto pistols. Various headstamps in 9mm and 45 vary in thickness and elasticity, enough to make sorting worthwhile. 40 and 10mm are two that you really can't risk setback. These two are often subjects for Kaboom threads and I believe setback is often the unsuspected culprit.
That the companies who design, manufacture, warranty and market plated bullets don't recommend roll crimping is telling.
I use the same approach in auto pistols. Various headstamps in 9mm and 45 vary in thickness and elasticity, enough to make sorting worthwhile. 40 and 10mm are two that you really can't risk setback. These two are often subjects for Kaboom threads and I believe setback is often the unsuspected culprit.
That the companies who design, manufacture, warranty and market plated bullets don't recommend roll crimping is telling.
Inyo Boy
Member
According to Berry's:
"You can use both the Taper and Roll Crimp on Berry's Bullets.
We recommend a light crimp on the bullet, just enough to put pressure against the bullet without denting or deforming the plating. If you were to pull the bullet out of a case with the proper crimp you would find no more than a scratch on the surface of the plating. If you are denting or deforming the bullet, your accuracy will suffer and the bullet may start to tumble before it hits the target."
I use Berry's 158 gr flat points for 38 and mid 357. I set my roll crimp so that it just kisses the case. Works for me.
"You can use both the Taper and Roll Crimp on Berry's Bullets.
We recommend a light crimp on the bullet, just enough to put pressure against the bullet without denting or deforming the plating. If you were to pull the bullet out of a case with the proper crimp you would find no more than a scratch on the surface of the plating. If you are denting or deforming the bullet, your accuracy will suffer and the bullet may start to tumble before it hits the target."
I use Berry's 158 gr flat points for 38 and mid 357. I set my roll crimp so that it just kisses the case. Works for me.
Just another 22 shooter
Member
I pull the seating stem out of a 9mm seating/taper crimp die and use it for a taper crimp on my 357 magnum plated bullet loads.
To answer fredj338's question, the bullets are 0.452 after plating. Give or take a couple ten thousandths.
However, given the warning about possible separation of the plating (kinda doubtful, it's bonded to the core, plus the pressure is behind it) warning about possible accuracy degradation will probably get more attention that anything else.
I haven't noted any accuracy issues with either 9mm or .45 bullets crimped tighter than the alleged Berry note above. Possibly I'm not fussy enough. The pressure on the bullet as it passes through the bore will most likely iron out any minor imperfections.
As a matter of fact, many factory loads without cannelured bullets are factory crimped. Sometimes quite heavily. I once pulled factory .222 loads for the bullets and the crimp was visible with the naked eye. They still shot in one ragged hole.
However, given the warning about possible separation of the plating (kinda doubtful, it's bonded to the core, plus the pressure is behind it) warning about possible accuracy degradation will probably get more attention that anything else.
I haven't noted any accuracy issues with either 9mm or .45 bullets crimped tighter than the alleged Berry note above. Possibly I'm not fussy enough. The pressure on the bullet as it passes through the bore will most likely iron out any minor imperfections.
As a matter of fact, many factory loads without cannelured bullets are factory crimped. Sometimes quite heavily. I once pulled factory .222 loads for the bullets and the crimp was visible with the naked eye. They still shot in one ragged hole.
I just loaded 50 rounds of 38 Special using Berry plated bullets 148 grain double ended wad-cutters. I give them a firm roll crimp and never have a problem. I have pulled some of these bullets after I gave them a firm crimp and there was the expected indentation but no damage was done to the bullet as far as going through the plating. They're pretty tough bullets and seem to handle a cramp very well.
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FWIW, last year I bought a batch of 1000 158gr RNFP plated bullets that were from "de-milled" (a.k.a. disassembled) factory ammo. While I can't say for sure, I suspect they were Xtreme plated bullets that came from breaking down Freedom Munitions reloads (since they are Xtreme's sister company and load with their components). They looked just like the ones I have bought from Xtreme.
Anywho, the bullets all had a very visible indented ring around them where they had been roll crimped. Kinda like the crimp formed its own shallow cannelure.
The entire rest of the bearing surface of the bullets looked untouched, and they measured out at .357, for the entire bearing surface - all except for the crimp ring.
They shot just fine and I didn't see any accuracy issues, but maybe I'm just not a good enough shot to notice
So, when I load plated bullets, I do a medium roll crimp - just like the makers of the bullets do when they load their own remanufactured ammo for sale.
Anywho, the bullets all had a very visible indented ring around them where they had been roll crimped. Kinda like the crimp formed its own shallow cannelure.
The entire rest of the bearing surface of the bullets looked untouched, and they measured out at .357, for the entire bearing surface - all except for the crimp ring.
They shot just fine and I didn't see any accuracy issues, but maybe I'm just not a good enough shot to notice
So, when I load plated bullets, I do a medium roll crimp - just like the makers of the bullets do when they load their own remanufactured ammo for sale.
The diameter of the expander governs bullet grip be it a handgun or rifle. And with plated bullets all that is needed is a taper crimp to close up the case mouth .001 more than case diameter.
With a plated bullet your not shooting magnum loads and proper bullet grip with a slight taper crimp should be good enough. I put a very light taper crimp on my .44 magnum practice loads with plated bullets and do not have a problem.
I know its a rifle type "M" die below but look at the expanders diameters for a .224 bullet. Your bullet grip below is .003 smaller than bullet diameter and the .226 diameter is to start the bullet straight in the case. And all that is needed is a slight taper crimp to streamline the case mouth.
Your crimp is governed by how hot the load and keeping recoil inertia from allowing the bullet to move. My target loads in my AR15 A2 HBAR are not crimped because my expander is .002 smaller than bullet diameter.
With a plated bullet your not shooting magnum loads and proper bullet grip with a slight taper crimp should be good enough. I put a very light taper crimp on my .44 magnum practice loads with plated bullets and do not have a problem.
I know its a rifle type "M" die below but look at the expanders diameters for a .224 bullet. Your bullet grip below is .003 smaller than bullet diameter and the .226 diameter is to start the bullet straight in the case. And all that is needed is a slight taper crimp to streamline the case mouth.
Your crimp is governed by how hot the load and keeping recoil inertia from allowing the bullet to move. My target loads in my AR15 A2 HBAR are not crimped because my expander is .002 smaller than bullet diameter.
gman51
Member
I had loaded Ranier 38 caliber plated round nose bullets with 2.5 gr clays powder. I didn't crimp them because Ranier said not to because it could cut the plating. I had 3 squibs, one bullet found 10' from where I was shooting and several laying on the ground at the target 10 yrds. away.
I took the last squib to a gunsmith for him to advise me what was what. he said the Clays is slow burning and causing the problems. I had my doubts about his advice and called Hodgdon and surprisingly was on the line with customer tech.
We talked for awhile and he asked what powder and bullets I was using. He also said the gunsmith doesn't know squat about Hodgdon Clays because it is one of the fastest powders on the market.
The man was very nice explaining things to me being a novice to reloading. I told him I really didn't think I missed putting powder in that many if any. He said rather than dumping powder from all the remaining couple hundred rounds to try putting a crimp on some first. He believed because of no crimp the bullets were moving out from initial ignition losing any seal for remaining powder and making the shell space larger. Both causing the round not to build pressure and causing the squibs and short distance falls.
I bought a Lee crimp die and crimped several rounds. I noticed a big difference in sound report and recoil. The bullets were actually hitting the target with decent pattern. So I crimped all the remaining rounds and they all shot very well with no squibs or weak rounds.
I now use Swamp Popper coated cast bullets and upped the Clays powder to 3.5 gr. I do crimp in final step. The rounds perform very well.
I took the last squib to a gunsmith for him to advise me what was what. he said the Clays is slow burning and causing the problems. I had my doubts about his advice and called Hodgdon and surprisingly was on the line with customer tech.
We talked for awhile and he asked what powder and bullets I was using. He also said the gunsmith doesn't know squat about Hodgdon Clays because it is one of the fastest powders on the market.
The man was very nice explaining things to me being a novice to reloading. I told him I really didn't think I missed putting powder in that many if any. He said rather than dumping powder from all the remaining couple hundred rounds to try putting a crimp on some first. He believed because of no crimp the bullets were moving out from initial ignition losing any seal for remaining powder and making the shell space larger. Both causing the round not to build pressure and causing the squibs and short distance falls.
I bought a Lee crimp die and crimped several rounds. I noticed a big difference in sound report and recoil. The bullets were actually hitting the target with decent pattern. So I crimped all the remaining rounds and they all shot very well with no squibs or weak rounds.
I now use Swamp Popper coated cast bullets and upped the Clays powder to 3.5 gr. I do crimp in final step. The rounds perform very well.
