Thank you in advance for your consideration and comments.
I am considering building a .300 AAC in an AR Carbine configuration to use as a defensive weapon on a homestead located thirty minutes from anywhere. There are less experienced people living here who do not handle the Remington 870 or SKS very well. I am looking for something a teen or more slightly built woman can handle. I know the 5.56 version of the AR handles straight line recoil very well. But to me the 5.56 seems better suited to military doctrine but less than ideal to defend a set point until the calvary arrives. I have handloaded 7.62 Russian Short for the SKS. (Love the Lee 312-155-2R gas checked lead on top of 2400.) Anyone reload for .300 AAC, not looking to get a can or SBR it or anything. Please don't suggest a .458 SOCOM ;-), and I am not a fan of AKs.

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Certified Curmudgeon

I don't own one personally, but have talked with a few folks that had them at our range and they loved it. And before you state that you aren't interested in a can, you still might want to consider one down the road if you decide to go with a Blackout gun. From what I saw (both guys had AR based Blackouts), they are light recoiling and with subsonic heavy bullets with a can they are extremely quiet. With lighter bullets and a can they had the supersonic crack but were still pretty quiet when run through a can. I don't remember if the guys shot anything without their can on the gun (it's been a year or more). If 5.56 don't float your boat, the Blackout might just fit the bill for you.

Range is a definite consideration.

300 has similar ballistics to x39 but it's made for use with suppressors. That's where it shines

Otherwise there isn't much of an advantage one vs the other. AR mags....sure but AK mags aren't expensive. Recoil will be relative. Some may hate it others may not mind.

I wouldn't buy a gun based on my neighbors
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The 7.62x39 does not feed well through a AR15 unless it is specifically designed for it. It has to do with the extreme taper of the case as much as anything. If you don't want a can, forget about the .300 Blackout. Ballistically, it is worse than the Russian.

I don't understand your dislike of the 5.56 AR. A couple of 30rd mags full of hard bullets like Barnes or any other deer worthy bullet would work well while waiting for the cavalry. A 1-4 scope with a illuminated reticle would be perfect for non-gun types.

Agreed, it's no .30-06. I thought of the SKS as being equivelent to an autoloading .30-30. Interestingly my favorite 7.62x39 load is a 155gr lead bullet over the exact same amount of 2400 as my favorite 158gr lead bullet in .357 magnum. Probably very similar out of SKS/18" Lever.

Anyway range is down the list for me as we have enough tree cover I would be unlikley to have a shot exceed 100yds. More likley half that.

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Here is my thought process...
With .300 a 30 round AR magazine holds 30 rounds, a 40, 40, etc.. AR parts are cheap and plentiful. It seems like I could build a carbine length gas system .300 and the only non standard part would be the barrel. I likley have accumulated parts for next to nothing to build one (less that barrel). Taper case x39 can't make it up an AR mag well reliably. (I bought the aftermath of a x39 AR the builder went all Jimi Hendrix on after too many jams.) Someone makes highly modified AR lowers that take AK mags. But while the mags are cheap, that specialty lower is not. Plus bolts have a habit of coming apart. Recoil is relative, but will be less than buckshot in a 870 or the SKS.

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I don't dislike the 5.56 AR. And I may be wrong here, but I thought the primary wounding mechanism on the 5.56 was yaw induced disintigration. Works great in a 20" rifle barrel, especially with trained riflemen. Shorter barrels or lighter loads may decrease velocity below the critical threshold. I know those 30 cal 150-160 grain loads do terminal damage at much lower velocities. Terrain has something to do with it as well. With tree cover I doubt I would be engaging a target at much range. They aren't so much non-gun types as M22/32 or Marlin 60 types who haven't seen what I have seen, and think 'that stuff' only happens in movies. Like the 1-4 IR suggestion, thanks.

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Still.... wouldn't buy based on neighbors. Also wouldn't build since cheap parts are cheap for a reason..... same reason x 39 didn't work in an AR. Cheap = cheap.

Forgetting all that AR works fine with 556 and ammo is plentiful. If I can stash thousands of rounds for under $300/1000rnds I would but since I can't and since I don't have a suppressor I have no interest in 300blk. My AKs are accurate, reliable and ammo is stacked by the thousands without the need to reload

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I have an upper in both calibers. It's a tough call for the application described. Both have their +/-.
Here is my input based on MY experience only:

The 300 has slightly less recoil and bark than the 7.62x39 in the 127/147 gr I shoot. It has notably more than the 5.56 but it's not bad. I don't know if your clients would be OK with it.

The 300 can be more expensive to feed (as compared to the 5.56 and 7.62). This can inhibit regular proficiency/practice.

The 300 uses EVERYTHING from the 5.56 parts bin but the barrel. This makes it cheap to build and allows conversion to 5.56 if the experiment doesn't work out.


The 7.62x39 enjoys cheap and common ammo.
Can take some work to get them to feed 100%. 7.62 Ar's have a reliability reputation for a reason.
It can be finicky with mags . Especially as those those mags get higher in capacity. Mags are unique and require an investment . (FWIW, I read that only ASC mags should be counted on. I use them in 10 rnd only).
Soft point / steel cased ammo should be avoided for reliability. You need to find ammo it likes and buy allot of (and only) it.
More recoil than the 300 and 5.56 in my experience.


Personally, I would stick with the 5.65 flavor and be done with it. Low recoil, cheap to feed, ammo is everywhere, flat shooting, reliable and plenty powerful to stop most critters of man sized and below.

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Dave

Absolutely correct, but as a civilian you are not forced to use FMJ ammunition. You can use whatever you want. That is why I suggest deer capable ammunition whenever someone considers an AR for self defense. Even when fired from a 16" barrel most will expand well past any distance that would be justifiable in a court of law.

As an aside, I'm 6-3 and my wife barely make 5 ft. Because of the collapsible stock on M4 style carbines and the shorter barrel, we can shoot the same rifle.

Great points. Definitly putting a CTR on a six stop tube, Daughter-in-law isn't growing but grandson is. Going with a carbine lenth gas system so I can just swap the barrel if .300 doesn't live up to expectations.

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I probably wasn't clear on my IP, The reason I am considering .300 is from looking at load data it appears to be a straight wall (reliable in AR mags) 5.56 based (so you use a tried and true AR bolt & carrier (eliminating sheared lugs) copy of 7.62x39. I have loaded lots of that caliber, and like shooting a mid range (155 to 158 depeding on alloy used) gas checked lead 2R projectile in an old SKS. ( Used to live in a magazine ban jurisdiction.) What I want to do is duplicate that load in a different platform.

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I am glad you like your AKs, getting shot at by gang-bangers armed with them may have something to do with my not caring for them. (Experience/practice will get you past the lack of a bolt stop and the unique magazine latching.) Guy here has a Sagia in each flavor, makes custom wood hardware for them, nice. I was.really just looking to see if anyone had experience handloading the .300. I handload 7.62x39, great bullets are 0.12 in quantity, primers 0.025, powder 0.035. Great rounds (That wont prematurly age my bore) for 18 cents a pop. I'm old I have brass a progressive and time to play with it.

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So if you got shot at by an AR you'd drop the idea of having an AR? No different the anti gun people blaming the gun!

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I have adopted the .357 lever rifle as my anybody-any situation rifle; woman-kid, whoever. I load it with hard cast RNFP led bullets, and I like nickel cases, as they process through the gun better than plain brass. Rifles typically hold 10 rounds-no magazines-top up any time, and have practically no recoil as compared to .44 mag lever guns that kick hard enough to induce flinch. Companion revolvers in the same caliber are a good back up, and only one kind of interchangeable ammo is needed. Caution should be taken when loading these rounds, as a 16 inch barrel can increase velocity by as much as 40%. I prefer my earlier Winchester, but other reliable, reasonably priced alternatives are available. Easy to shoot-load, and operate. Light weight and reduced overall length. Red dot sights are available.

Ok. I will sign up for a sensitivity training workshop. Step one is admitting I have a problem.

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Have you considered a 6.8 SPC?

A 300 Blackout in any subsonic loading has the same or less energy as a 45 ACP. For a light carbine, easy to handle for women or teens try a Marlin Camp 45. Proven ammo and reloads. Uses standard 1911 mags, and easy to put optics or red dots on. I have mine 2.5" high at 50 yards, easily good to go at 100 yards.

Too bad they can't use the SKS.

Another alternative is a M-1 Carbine with Winchester 110gr. soft hollow points. (about like a 357 lever gun.)

Ivan

My choice in a similar situation would be a .30 Carbine over any AK, AR, or SKS. However, I already have a couple of those, and finding one of the originals at a reasonable price is difficult today. Lightweight, high magazine capacity, low recoil, reliable, not too noisy, and it's no trick to hit a man-sized target out to 200 yards. Expanding bullet ammo would be preferable to GI.

Educate me on the merits of the 6.8. More boxes of different flavors of factory loads seem to be showing up on LGS shelves.

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Some beautiful ones for sale around here. Realy cool classics. But like you say, pricey.

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Hopefully the boy will grow into the SKS and appriciate it. I really like it. Quick and easy to push 10 in.

My favorite load is just a tad north of the published 14.5 grains of 2400 under a gaschecked water dropped Lee 312-155 sized .311. Not subsonic. If I build a .300AAC I would be approximating this loading for an AR platform.

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Certified Curmudgeon

I actually have a 20", should check them out on it. I could be sneaky and load it with wadcutters for the trial ;-).

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Certified Curmudgeon

Thank you. I just bought one of the D&Hs from the guys in Grinnell, once its here I will see if its a cure. Looks like the opposite of Anti-tilt or am I looking at the pictures wrong? Someone here has been trying to sell a barrel or barreled upper for a while. (After telling everyone it was a frustrating Jam-o-matic. Midwestern honesty still takes getting used to after all theese years.) IIRC his mags looked like they had been cut out and tack welded by two or more Deputy Inspectors ;-).

Oh, quality brass (BRASS not mystery metal) is so important handloading anything. Same headstamp each batch.

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Certified Curmudgeon

A lot or cr@ptastic advice in this post. Yeah I am talking about all you recommending military weapons designed 60 years ago or civvie weapons without proven long term reliability, or non standard calibers for a current use self defense rifle. As a firearm enthusiast I like the SKS, M1 Carbine, pistol caliber rifles, MBR's and most other types, fun to study, learn and shoot. IMO they are not the right choice for novice shooter for self defense use? NEED safe, effective, reliable, easy to manipulate, easy to maintain, easy to scope or RDS, easy to use rifle for non enthusiast learning and possible defense use. ANSWER AR based MSR in 5.56 or 300 Blackout with caveats.

For fixed point defense (range 0 to 100 yards) would you think 5.56 (77, 62, 55, 40gr) or 7.62 (155, 140, 125, 110 gr.)? I handload so variation is easy.

M-1 carbines are pretty simple. The trading post around here has 4. International, Winchester, Quality, something else. $3000, $3000, $1600, $1400. Iron sights and I don't think at those prices were doing any modifications....

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[QUOTE=TomkinsSP;139635377]For fixed point defense (range 0 to 100 yards) would you think 5.56 (77, 62, 55, 40gr) or 7.62 (155, 140, 125, 110 gr.)?.

In my opinion(for what that is worth); 223/5.56 is always easier to shoot. The 308/7.62 is always the better round. When fixed to a location, like your home, the weight of spare ammo is of no consideration. If you are building an AR type rifle, look at AR-10 in 7.62/308. The gun the parts the ammo all cost more! They also do more! More distance and more damage. Ball 308 works on buildings also, and shoots through 10-12" trees!

However this thread WAS about novice shooters and small build shooters. If ANY AR platform is a problem, don't do an AR! SKS is a problem? It actually sounds more like Center Fire is the problem! THEY want a gun that doesn't have any recoil or doesn't make any noise! Personally so do I! But I'm not going to get it! SO you have more to do that make a gun, You need to have communications! Good luck with that!

Ivan

Don't know your reloads. If you want good performance buy ammo made for performance. Quality know and tested SD ammo will be better than fmj

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I know nothing about the .300 blackout, but I'm quite familiar with the 7.62x39. I bought a couple of SKSs when they were real cheap, about 1990, along with a 550 round sardine tin of steel core ammo. Like most cheap ammo, it shot poorly as I recall.

I worked up many jacketed and cast bullet loads for the SKSs, and surprisingly, cast loads would often outshoot the jacketed ones. Finally lost interest in the incredibly crude but reasonably accurate SKSs.

I bought two of the limited edition Davidson Ruger MKII stainless bolt actions in 7.62x39 around '92 or '93. These guns shot just about everything accurately, including some cast bullets of over 200 grains, something I thought was not possible. When I finally concentrated solely on the cartridge, I tried to figure out what it was really good for. Despite what some say, it's ballistically not the equal of the .30-30.

For deer hunting, there are far better cartridges. Maybe it's niche is in the dreams of the tactically-oriented metropolitan mercenaries. I never really came to a conclusion as to usefulness. But, for the handloader that likes to experiment with different cartridges for the sake of experimentation, the 7.62x39 is as good a candidate as any other.

You were doing just fine until you hit the 300 Blackout, even with caveats. Blackouts can be cranky because they use small amounts of pistol powders. They work best as SBR's when you can have a high port pressure.

I've got a bunch of M1 Carbines and Garands. I can't recommend anything for self defense that may have a part ready to break with the next shot because you have no idea how it's been used.

Ivan is right that the .308 is a better cartridge than the 5.56. The problem with a .308 AR is that they are, for the most part, not as reliable as an AR in 5.56, recoil more, and weigh a lot more than the 5.56 models. All of this adds up to not being suitable for non-gun types for home defense.

I have a 6.8 SPC AR that I hunt deer with. It runs like a dream and hits harder than a 5.56. Magazines can be a problem unless you want to pay $60+ for each one. Ammunition is not that easy to come by. Between that and the magazine issue, I can't recommend it for self defense even if it is my favorite AR caliber.

One of the reasons I am considering .300 AAC is a published Alliant 2400 loading using 16+ grains to push a cast .308 gas checked round. VERY similar to a .311 gc round I load for my SKS. While I don't get into the 16's, I do exede the 14.5 published for 7.62x39 (and you can find anonymous 16 grain x39 loads online so I know I am not too far off the reservation). @2300 fps or therabouts its a LARGE load of pistol powder (I load a 158 grain gas checked lead RF .358 with 15.2 grains of 2400 for .357 rem mag). Subsonic doesn't interest me. If zombies are attacking the house. I want EVERYONE around to hear the defensive fire. (And the zombies know where the fire is coming from anyway.)

Looks to me that the difference between weight AR-15/AR-10 based MSR is 7 vs 10 pounds give or take. And the extra range of 7.62x51 is of no benefit.

According to GunData.org the velocity and trajectory of a 123 grain 7.62x39 FMJ and a .30-30 150 grain JSP is IDENTICAL through 0-250 yards. Probably within the variation between lots of ammunition. That is my experience with 155 grain cast .311 and 180 grain cast .308 out of a 16.25" SKS and a 16.5" Marlin 336. IDENTICAL, (.30-30 probably has a bit more top end potential).

If one was to build a x39 AR, I assume some bolts are better than others.

Does anyone have first hand experience of cycling issues with SUPERSONIC .300 AAC in 16" barrel with a carbine length gas system.

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Certified Curmudgeon

If you decide on the x39mm AR I would check out Windham before building. If you are active Law Enforcement they give you a healthy discount. IIRC my SRC with discount was just about $700 shipped direct from Windham a few years ago.

Here is a video from their web site. Explains the importance of caliber specific mags and a few other modifications such as the feed ramps. Windhams x39mm AR's have a very solid reputation for reliability. It is a must watch if you are considering the x39mm AR purchase or build.

Good luck with your choice.
Klyde

As previously mentioned, a guy at the local 'rod and gun club' was looking to unload a x39 barrel. I tried to set up a test BEFORE he dissasembled it using a D&H magazine. (Thank you KLYDE.) Long story-short we worked out a horse trade. 5.56 DPMS barrel, extension, bolt and regular firing pin, ammo and STANMAGs for Olympic Arms x39 versions of same. Got an extra long firing pin in the trade, but I think I will try the regular one first. Not sure what I am going to do with four really ugly magazine shaped paperweights, or the five boxes of Russia's finest ammo. The difference between the unmarked mags (yeah, I wouldn't want my name on them either) and the D&H one is stark. The Wisconsinite is about twice as heavy and ten times as rigid. Once I build the rifle, and see how it handles good quality PMC factory and my favorite 155-2R handloads I will post results.

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16" Olympic Arms 7.62x39 barrel
Carbine length gas system
Anderson upper and lower
Magpul furniture in FDE
D&H 30 round mag

Attached Images

20170623_232743.jpg (68.7 KB, 11 views)

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Certified Curmudgeon

You'll like that setup. The D&H mags will make all the difference. I have a 16" and a 10.5" AR47 and they function great using good mags, an extended firing pin, and the right combo of trigger and hammer springs. I learned what worked on my 16" as far as hammer/trigger springs. Initially I had to install a Wolf extra power hammer spring to reliably fire Russian/Ukrainian steel case ammo. The bad consequence was a way too heavy and just horrible trigger. Then I tried the J&P Enterprises enhanced reliability spring kit and those along with polishing the trigger have resulted in a very nice and smooth pull that works nicely with the cheapo steel case ammo with hard primers.

I also have an 8.5" .300 Blackout AR pistol build that has been flawless. I'm working up loads for it right now since as much as I love shooting it, it is expensive to feed. I love my AK's but it has been fun shooting cheap 7.62x39 on the AR platform especially since from a manual of arms standpoint it is what I most prefer and enjoy. Good luck with your AR47.

Just curious as to the measurement of the extra length firing pin. The OEM pin in my Windham measures 3.297".

I'm running the Geiselle Tricon trigger that utilizes a full power hammer spring. 2 1/2 pound first stage and breaks at 4 1/4 pounds. The rifle has run 100%.

To me it is all about the platform. Cut my teeth on the AR in 1975 at Parris Island. Still carry it at work and don't want to introduce another manual of arms. If I ever want to shoot 5.56 I'll toss another upper on the rifle. The best of both worlds.

Glad the D&H mags arrived. As stated above and shown in the video, they are the key to reliability. Get good mags and the AR47 works.
Regards Klyde

Thanks KLYDE,
I wish the magS had arrived, but I only paid for one :-). Hopefully the Iowans will have more for me to order if this expirement works. My caliper doesn't go to 3"+ but using the unimat and feeler guages the ENHANCED pin is 0.012" longer than the 2 unused new pins I have on the workbench. 100 percent of the additional length is the smallest diameter at the primer end.

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Flawless to 200 rounds. Must order more magazines.

Although the previous owner said he only put 20 or so rounds down the barrel, it was really dirty. So I cleaned it with aerosol brake cleaner and lots of cotton patches, then I drowned it in light machine oil before assembling the metal parts. Wiped the exterior before adding the furniture. This morning I patched it and pretended it was a single shot, starting with the PMC FMJs; bang-clean it with more oil till no carbon. Ten times. Then loaded two in the mag, bang-bang-clean. Five times. Then five in the mag. Bang(x5)-clean. Twice at five, twice at 10. 15-clean. 20-clean. 25-clean. 30-clean. 140 rounds of FMJ, took hours, but supposed to be good to 'season' a new barrel. 60 rounds of handloaded lead, sights adjusted. Son grandson and Daughter-in-law took a few shots. Manageable, lot more than the Marlin 60, less than the 336. So as we watch the sun receede. My brass bucket full. A day of family, beers, barbeque and bullets. Does it get any better?

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Certified Curmudgeon

Sounds like you had a great day. Doesn't get any better than that. Curious if you have had any leading issues with your gas port and the lead bullets? Keep us filled in on progress.

BTW...Windham sells the D&H mags if you can't find them anywhere else.
Klyde

Hate to brake it to you but barrels don't know they're being "seasoned". It doesn't do anything but waste time and materials

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Perhaps I am wrong, or my information is just obsolete ( that problem gets bigger each year.) I was taught that just like a cast iron skillet, the barrel benefits from being seasoned. The process of warming the barrel (single shots) and applying oil gets oil down in the microscopic pores of the metal. ( I use light machine oil because thats what I was taught, even though I later will switch to using a synthethic because it will actually dry leaving a protective coating that doesn't attract dirt.) On a brand new barrel it also helps finish the less than smooth remnants of the manufacturing process, and clean any residual left behind. Funny thing, maybe six years ago I bought a crate engine. It had a specified break in process that was very similar. Attach accesories fill with light viscosity motor oil, pull through many, many times, drain and recycle oil. Fill, run engine without load so long, drain and recycle oil. Then drain drive 25 miles, oil change, 100 miles oil change... Maybe its a coincidence but that engine spins like a top 117,000 miles later.... I also clean and lube actions and dry run them two hundred times before firing once. I keep bolts with barrels and carriers with uppers. Maybe I just have OCD.

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It probably made some difference in old guns when black powder and corrosive primers were used when metallurgy was not as good as it is today. And it may make some difference in a few very expensive target barrels.

Modern barrels don't need any of that because metallurgy is better, it's not black powder and no more corrosive primers unless you're buying old European surplus ammo, which is obviously not the case here. Even if it did make some difference it would be microscopic. It won't change the longevity and any accuracy difference would be microscopic.

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Just looked down the barrel with the borelight. Pretty, no sign of lead. I wouldn't expect it based on years of shooting the same round in an SKS. It is 155-158 grains water quenched gas checked (that's prob the secret right there) from a Lee 312-155-2R, sized .311. I like 2400, the cases are WIN or PMC, I prefer the CCI primers, but use WIN if not avalible. (OK I'll use whatever when not avalible). I load more than the 14.5 published by Ed Harris but not that much more. Its funny I also load a 358-158-RF using 15.2 grains of 2400 for a lever gun.
Disclaimer: never load from internet sources, never load without a manual, never start at a max loading, never exceede loading data pu lished, never talk with food in your mouth, never wear white after Labor day, never eat dessert first, never swim less than 20 minutes after eating, never end a sentance with a participle (or was that a preposition)...

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Certified Curmudgeon

You forgot to mention that most AR barrels are either chrome lined or treated with ferritic nitrocarburizing. Both processes are used to reduce wear and corrosion.

Thanks again to KLYDE for recommending the D&H magazines. I just completed testing 200 rounds apiece through six D&H mags. Flawless. 120 PMC fmjs and 480 handloaded lead (158grain 2Rs dropped from a Lee mold over 2400.

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