38/357 Load + COL + Starline Brass

I'm used to reloading for semi-auto pistols but have my new to me 686 now to load for. I generally tend towards loading COL longer so long as it cycle properly, doesn't engage rifling prematurely, etc. if making a load for a specific gun.

However, wheel guns are be a different beast.

I'm going to be using Starline 357 mag brass and Berry's Preferred 158grn FP Plated @ .358. Intended powder is Titegroup, but have CFE Pistol, Unique and AA# 2. The goal is a target load that's slightly more stout than 38 special pressure to practice getting sight picture after a shot break, but no current intentions of full house 357 loads.

I'm thinking to start with 4.3 grains Titegroup, which is Hodgdon published for Hornady XTP (albeit, these a JHPs) as a .38 spl +P load, in a 38 case. Hodgdon lists max load of 6.1 grains for 357 loads for the same projectile/power, in 357 cases so have plenty of margin (except for double charges of course).

Some questions:

- This Starline brass reminds me of military 9mm. It's ungodly thick. It's a tough push through the resizing die (sizing the new brass so it's the same dimensions when once fired and sized) and seems to get stuck on my powder through expanding die every time. Once + fired range 357 brass of other headstamps doesn't have this issue. I'm barely belling enough to seat the bullet without it falling. It's a tough flare and a tough drive to seat the bullet than I'm used to. However, I pulled the bullets on some samples and didn't see any copper being shaved down to lead. Is Starline known to be this stiff? It's not much better skipping the sizing. I'm thinking the slightly oversized .358 projectiles might not be the best fit for this brass.

- What's the general trend for COL in 357 revolvers for consistent velocity and accuracy? Should the cartridges be loaded long COL to minimize the throat jump (obviously not long enough to bind the cylinder or prevent the round from seating headspacing against the rim), or since the bullet will be swaged slightly by the throat anyway, is it better to seat deeper and get more neck tension for better powder starts? The 158 grn FPs seem to get a decent amount of surface area even when loaded to just ~.004 below cylinder face

- Titegroup is known to be hot burning, is there a non-negligible concern with premature erosion of the forcing cone/top strap enough to warrant NOT using TG in this application?

Your Hornaday manual will list an OAL for cartridges, use that, or something close to it. I'm using 1.400" for Berry 158 gr THPs in .38 Spl brass. Taper crimp at that length. If you don't have a taper crimp die, seat the shoulder of the bullet inside the case mouth and roll crimp over the shoulder. RCBS has separate roll & taper crimp dies if you need them. Having one of each is handy.

Given the distance between bullet nose & rifling, playing with cartridge length to try to increase accuracy is a waste of time & effort. Your wibbles & wobbles will have more affect on groups. The other consideration is that seating the bullet long increases case capacity, lowering velocities. [I use the OAL listed above because it gives me better velocities and less variation than the book 1.450".]

You don't mention your brand of dies. RCBS & Lyman use an M die profile on the expander ball. This provides a shoulder on the expander to increase the expansion enough to allow the bullet to be an easy fit into the case. You adjust this shoulder to go about 1/32" into the case. If you don't have either brand of die, the Lyman M die is available separately (Grafs & Son or direct from Lyman products).

There have been a couple of threads about Tite Group, you might want to do a search.

I'm using Berry's Plated. The mention of the HDY XTPs was just Hodgdon's reference point. Berry's doesn't publish data.

I'm using a Lee 4 die set with factory crimp die. This does a roll crimp which appears to be the consensus crimp type for plated. I adjusted the die so it leaves a minor indentation when the bullet is pulled.

My bad, forgot to put Berry in on my bullet, took care of that.

I've been using taper crimp on plated bullets. Works for me. As I change bullets depending upon use, I have both crimping types, also save fiddling with adjustments.

No experience with Lee dies, if your expander doesn't have the shoulder I noted, you might want to try one with it.

COL for 38 Special or 357 Magnum..................

put the crimp into the bullet's cannelure!!

Nevada Ed said:

COL for 38 Special or 357 Magnum..................

put the crimp into the bullet's cannelure!!

Click to expand...

No cannelure on plated bullets that I've ever come across.

I load my 686 with 4.3 grains of 231, Starline Brass, 158 SNS SWC Coated Bullet (.358) at an OAL of 1.610. I use LEE dies. This is a very accurate and mild load.

Starline brass for the first load is stiff mainly on belling the case mouth. I make sure before I load them the first time I lightly chamfer the case mouth and run them through my media tumbler with used media to dirty them up a bit. I think the brass is just too clean. This seems to help but still bit stiffer than once they are fired the first time but it’s doable. No problems after that. The inside of the case after the first firing is nice and black and acts as a lube for belling. Bullets are not shaved.

I can get a lot of reloads from my Starline Brass. It’s good stuff.

cds43016 said:

I load my 686 with 4.3 grains of 231, Starline Brass, 158 SNS SWC Coated Bullet (.358) at an OAL of 1.610. I use LEE dies. This is a very accurate and mild load.

Starline brass for the first load is stiff mainly on belling the case mouth. I make sure before I load them the first time I lightly chamfer the case mouth and run them through my media tumbler with used media to dirty them up a bit. I think the brass is just too clean. This seems to help but still bit stiffer than once they are fired the first time but it’s doable. No problems after that. The inside of the case after the first firing is nice and black and acts as a lube for belling. Bullets are not shaved.

I can get a lot of reloads from my Starline Brass. It’s good stuff.

Click to expand...

That's a good point. I've never bought unprimed brass before this and my cases have always had some walnut dust on them prior to sizing/flaring/seating.

I've read of similar issues being present in wet tumbled brass vs dry for that reason.

Starline is good brass. With new brass, I do a light chamfer of the case mouth, then give it an hour in the tumbler with used media to get it lubed up a little. Solves the sticking problem with the Lee expander die, at least for me.

86ed said:

No cannelure on plated bullets that I've ever come across.

Click to expand...

Some do have a shallow cannelure. Xtreme Bullets makes them for instance. I have good results using xtp data and oal with flat nosed under 12-1300fps and at the light magnum loading you are looking at that should be fine.

86ed said:

No cannelure on plated bullets that I've ever come across.

Click to expand...

X-treme's plated bullets for 38/357 come with cannelures. <<<X-treme>>>

And for some decent jacketed bullets for good prices I recommend Zero brand bullets. You can buy them from Roze Distribution. <<<Zero Bullets>>>

(1) The brass is hard to resize and expand because it's factory new. Lube every 5th or 7th case. You may also trim/chamfer/deburr the new cases, if you have the equipment to do that.

(2) Throat jump doesn't matter a whole ton. Load to whatever length makes you happiest.

(3) Premature throat and topstrap erosion doesn't happen because one powder is "hotter" than another. It happens through the use of extremely slow-burning ball-type powders. Titegroup is not one of these.

Yep....

Starline is HARD. During the shortages when they were making only a little .357 I got some cases from them and it was like trying to resize diamonds. They were even worse than usual.

Nice thing about revolver cartridges that are based on old black powder cartridges is that COL isn't nearly as critical as in a small case like 9mm, 10mm, .40 cas

If the bullet has a crimp groove, all the better., just use that. Seating deeper doesn't help because a revolver cartridge is held by the roll crimp, unlike a straight wall semi that is held by neck tension with a taper crimp. I believe that XTPs have a groove.

With the light loads you propose, I'd suggest a light roll crimp. Moderate loads take a slightly heavier crimp. Using slow magnum powders like h110/win 296 people generally advise a heavy crimp to get a good burn started before the bullet leaves the case.

Are you sure you want to shoot targets with slow moving XTPs? If you are rolling in dough, go ahead, but for plinking and target I use much less expensive bullets than defense style.

Plated bullets are ok to about 1200 fps. Heavy plated plated bullets are almost like jacketed

For the best accuracy I use .38 HBSWC swaged bullets. Grease in groove lube for harder bullets is ok.

I mostly shoot polymer coated bullets, mostly Hi-Tek coated that cost about 8 cents each.

86ed said:

I'm using Berry's Plated. The mention of the HDY XTPs was just Hodgdon's reference point. Berry's doesn't publish data.

I'm using a Lee 4 die set with factory crimp die. This does a roll crimp which appears to be the consensus crimp type for plated. I adjusted the die so it leaves a minor indentation when the bullet is pulled.

Click to expand...

Reading your original post I would have guessed Lee dies by the comment on the expander button on the powder dispensing die sticking.

I use Lee pistol dies almost exclusively for pistol cartridges and Starline brass from new (but with range pickups when shooting competitions I end up with a lot of mixed brass) and yes, case mouths sticking in the powder die is common with Starline for me. And not just on the first loading either.

It even happens after case tumbling.

My solution is to spray lube the cases. Pistol cases loaded with carbide dies do not need lube but it works. My LGS has their own proprietary case lube using an alcohol base for dispersal in a spray bottle but any good spray on case lube should work.

Keep the coating light though. I generally only use a max of two short sprays per 200 - 300 cases.

You may find your powder charge a bit light. I use 4.2 gn Tightgroup under a 148 gn HBWC in my 6” 686-4. Hodgson lists this as a +P load with a max 4.4 gn at 980 fps, and while I can’t offhand remember the velocity it is lower than Hodgson lists (most of their loads are a bit optimistic in my experience). I load for a minimum 120 PF with an additional 8-10 PF as a safety margin so it is probably in the 850-900 fps range. In a .357 Magnum case velocity will be a fair bit lower again.

And Starline brass will last for years. I loaded an original 500 cases for almost 20 years to +P pressures before I bought some more to replace those that were splitting.

Kiwi--Whenever I bust out a new "lot" of .44 brass from my giant box of Starline, I spritz a little case lube (regular wet spray, non-aerosol) on a paper towel, and then wipe five or six cases out of 50 with the lube'd towel. I let the cases dry, and use one for the first round. When the press starts slowing, I use another lube'd case. Generally I have a couple left over when I'm done with the box.

i reload 357 magnum using only Starline brass and Berry's 158gr FMJ-FP bullets. I use a Hornady Lock N Load classic single stage press, RCBS 3 piece die and a Dillon factory crimp die. I get all my data from my Hornady 9th edition manual and stay within the load parameters listed.

I highly suggest H110 for use with 357 Magnum. That has been my powder of choice lately and I've been real happy with the results. I also use Winchester small pistol magnum primers, or WSPM for short. When using the dies for the brass. Adjust the expander die until you can push the bullet in without having it fall out but not to the point where the case mouth looks like a trumpet either. You want it so the bullet can be pushed into the case a couple mm's. I don't use the crimp in the seating die. I insert a empty sized case and adjust the die until it just touches the case then back off 1 full turn then lock it down. I use my Dillon crimp die for that.

The recipe I like is as of follows:

13.9gr H110

Hornady 158gr XTP OR Berry's 158gr FMJ-FP

Winchester small pistol magnum primer

COL of 1.590"

The revolver I use is a 4" model 686-6. I use these loads for bowling pin matches. As far as "flame cutting". No. There will always be some kind of mark above the forcing cone from shooting magnum loads but that is normal. I think, and I'm not sure but I think the 125gr 357 magnum loads are the real hot ones that can cause flame cutting. the heavier bullets not so much.

From the Hodgdon page.


158gr Hornady XTP

Starting load of Titegroup is 5.4gr - max 6.1gr.

COL is 1.580"

Keep in mind that a cartridge overall length is not going to be the same for every bullet weight and powder brand/charge. Those COL have been tested with those specific powders/charges and it is wise to stay within those exact lengths for that given bullet & powder.

Now if you really want to use titegroup, if it was me, I'd start with 5.5grs. I think you'd be fine at 5.5 grs since there's only a spread of 94fps between the starting load and max load.

Word of extreme caution!!!
5.5gr of Titegroup is gonna be at the bottom of the case and if you accidentally double charge a case, it might be difficult to tell the difference between a double charge and normal charge. This is another reason why I suggest using H110 or similar, I also like using Blue Dot for 357 magnum. If I try to double charge 13.9 gr of H110 the case will overflow. 14gr of H110 will fill a 357 magnum case about 2/3rds full. Real easy to tell if there's powder in the case and a accidental double charge is a no-brainer.

rwsmith said:

Starline is HARD. During the shortages when they were making only a little .357 I got some cases from them and it was like trying to resize diamonds. They were even worse than usual.

Nice thing about revolver cartridges that are based on old black powder cartridges is that COL isn't nearly as critical as in a small case like 9mm, 10mm, .40 cas

If the bullet has a crimp groove, all the better., just use that. Seating deeper doesn't help because a revolver cartridge is held by the roll crimp, unlike a straight wall semi that is held by neck tension with a taper crimp. I believe that XTPs have a groove.

With the light loads you propose, I'd suggest a light roll crimp. Moderate loads take a slightly heavier crimp. Using slow magnum powders like h110/win 296 people generally advise a heavy crimp to get a good burn started before the bullet leaves the case.

Are you sure you want to shoot targets with slow moving XTPs? If you are rolling in dough, go ahead, but for plinking and target I use much less expensive bullets than defense style.

Plated bullets are ok to about 1200 fps. Heavy plated plated bullets are almost like jacketed

For the best accuracy I use .38 HBSWC swaged bullets. Grease in groove lube for harder bullets is ok.

I mostly shoot polymer coated bullets, mostly Hi-Tek coated that cost about 8 cents each.

Click to expand...

Where do I find some swaged HB-SWCs?

Hornaday and Speer make swaged HBWCs. Grafs has the Hornadays in stock.

Wise_A said:

(1) The brass is hard to resize and expand because it's factory new. Lube every 5th or 7th case. You may also trim/chamfer/deburr the new cases, if you have the equipment to do that.

(2) Throat jump doesn't matter a whole ton. Load to whatever length makes you happiest.

(3) Premature throat and topstrap erosion doesn't happen because one powder is "hotter" than another. It happens through the use of extremely slow-burning ball-type powders. Titegroup is not one of these.

Click to expand...

(1) I have a Lyman case prep tool that will do all the above.

(2) Figured it might be negligible.

(3) I've read that too, in combination with using light projectiles.

rwsmith said:

Are you sure you want to shoot targets with slow moving XTPs? If you are rolling in dough, go ahead, but for plinking and target I use much less expensive bullets than defense style.

Plated bullets are ok to about 1200 fps. Heavy plated plated bullets are almost like jacketed

For the best accuracy I use .38 HBSWC swaged bullets. Grease in groove lube for harder bullets is ok.

I mostly shoot polymer coated bullets, mostly Hi-Tek coated that cost about 8 cents each.

Click to expand...

The XTPs were mentioned just as a datapoint for 158grain projectiles. My Lee manual or die set sheets don't have a close analog in 158 grn FPs in lead or plated. Those are expensive pills for target shooting absolutely.

I was able to get my Berry's 158 grn plated at about 7 cents ea with some clever use of coupons and promotions.