Have 686-3, 2 3/4" barrel. Looking for a good powder for 158 gr. XTP JHP. These are CCW rounds, so, looking for upper end magnum load.

For short barrels you can't go wrong with Power Pistol. With 158gr bullets Alliant recommends 8.5grs as max. Start a few grains below that and work up and see how it goes.
Alliant used CCI 500 primers in their testing with this application.

I would give Accurate No. 7 and No. 9 a try. Both have less flash than a lot of other powders. You should avoid 296, H110, Blue Dot, and Power Pistol for sure. Good powders, but they have huge fireballs.

I have had good luck with True Blue to be honest.

Mark in GA

Your barrel is probably shorter than you think, it should be 2.5"

I had good luck with longshot in my SP-101

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-Matt

Some magazine years ago, had an article that showed short barrels gave better velocity with the same powders that gave good velocity with long barrels.

Powders that make the highest velocities in long barrels are the same powders that make the highest velocities in short barrels. That is to say slow powders. There are several good recommendations above.

I gave up trying to find a great defense load for a .357 Snubbie. The .38+P offerings that are designed for the short barrel .38 perform just as well with a lot less flash and recoil. I'm sure that a lot will disagree with what I'm saying but it works for me. The testing by luckygunner.com was pretty interesting and I know no test are fool proof but I think for general defense loads the +P are just as good

You ever shoot Pp in a short bbl? Impressive muzzle blast. If i am getting that much blast I want the vel too.
I would look at AA#7 or maybe be86? It wont get you top end but less blast. Of course if you want highest vel, slow powders still give that, just more blast & flash.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

M19, 2 1/2 in., 158 gr. bullet and 15 grs. of 2400. Over 1200 fps.

From my testing the powder that generates the highest velocity in a 4" barrel will do the same in a 2.5" barrel.

Since these are defensive loads you want to be sure not to sacrifice accuracy for a little extra velocity. I would also use a different bullet. The XTP makes a better hunting round than SD round. You might consider the Speer GDHP bullet instead.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

I say H110 is still a good powder even in a short barrel. Plus if you miss the shot the fireball will take the bad guy out.

Best ammo for short barrel 357 Magnum revolvers are the 38 Special +P and 357 Magnum ammo that is designed for short barreled revolvers. If you must roll your own, then I would suggest staying away from the slow burning powders such as H110/W-296, 2400, and IMR-4227. I think you would be better off duplicating those short barreled ammo ballistics with a fast or medium burning rate powder. Accurate Arms powders do seem to produce less flash than a lot of canister grade powders. I'd look at loads using AA#5 and AA#7.

I went with 14.7gr of 2400 pushing a 158gr cast bullet in a 3" bbl'd (actual bbl is 2 1/2") 586 l-comp. The load ended up 1200fps+.

Last summer I did some head to head testing for the 357 with:
2400 VS H110 VS MP-300

I used 3 different 150gr to 158gr bullets and 2 1/2", 4", 6", 8" & 10" bbl's for the test.

At the end of the day:
The 2400 outperformed H110 & Mp-300 in the 2 1/2" bbl
They were all about equal in the 4" bbl.'s with the edge going to H110 & MP-300.
H-110 & MP-300 pulled ahead velocity wise with the 6" bbl.'s & there was no contest with the 8" and 10" bbl.'s.

On a side note:
The MP-300 was getting +/- 1670fps out of the 10" bbl'd 357mag with 158gr cast bullets. Planned on doing some tests this year using 110gr cast bullets in the 357/10" bbl combo with MP-300. Should be in the +/- 2000fps range.

Protip: Customize the color of your fireballs! Higher charge weights and better neck tension/crimp lead to cleaner, whiter flashes.

Do some research, find a powder that gets you in the velocities you desire.

If you are like me you'll carry a gun for going on 40 years and never use it for SD.

Don't overthink it and go about your day.

I loaded up some "short barrel" loads for my .357 using 110 grain JHP's and Unique powder. I still haven't chronographed them, but will post the results here as soon as I do. Does anyone else have experience using Unique in a short barrel, or any barrel length revolver for that matter? I thought it would be a good choice, but I don't see a lot of others using it, or talking about it online.

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Smith. And Wesson. And Me!

Unless you spelled it wrong, you will find Unique has been used for decades...

Pushing a 110gr bullet with Unique will get you some good velocities. 1400+.. some other powders out there that will get you more, but Unique is more versatile in more calibers.

I've used it since the 80's and still do today.

Unique, like other med burners, does a good job in short bbls. In my 2 1/2" M66, I get within 50fps of loads using 2400 & with a lot less blast & flash.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Thanks bigbruce and fredj338. I was thinking in terms of burn rate and my 2.6" barrel. How does Unique compare with other fast burning powders? I don't worry too much about muzzle flash, but I'm more concerned about squeezing out every last fps of velocity per barrel inch. I've gotten a 125 gr bullet going an average of 1100 fps using 13 or 14 grains of 2400. That's decent enough for self defense at close range...and better than most 9mm's. I'd love to know which powder the commercial loaders like Speer use for their "short barrel" loads - it might even be a duplex- but I'm sure they aren't going to give away their recipe.

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Smith. And Wesson. And Me!

You are leaving a bunch on the table with 2400.. Alliant online guide says a 125gr GDHP with 17.5gr of 2400 1400fps..

OK ...586L-comp
Nosler 158gn. JHP
11.2gns. 3N38
WSPM primers
New Starline brass
COAL 1.592"
They are off book loads, light on the flash, low heat single-base powder. Start low at your own discretion.

Yeah more room top run there. I have gotten almost 1300fps in a 2 1/2" with 125gr JHP over less than max Unique. BE86 might be a bit better as it is a bit slower.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

There is a contradiction in your post. You said you are looking to squeeze every bit of velocity out of the short barrel then you ask about the Speer Short Barrel ammo. The Speer Short Barrel ammo is barely a .357 Magnum with a claimed velocity of only 990 fps from a 2" barrel.

When trying to duplicate both the .38 Special +P and .357 Magnum Speer Short Barrel ammo years ago I contacted a Speer tech. Without directly saying which powders to try I got the message the magnum ammo is loaded with a powder similar to Power Pistol with a flash suppressor and the .38 Special +P with AA#5.

Good luck.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

A 158gr bullet isn't the best SD choice for a short barrel. You give up too much energy.

Speer #14 lists some short barrel (2.5") data for their 135gr GDHP-SB bullet as well as the exact same loads fired from a 6" barrel.

Their most powerful 158gr load (2400) they tested had ~526 ft/lb (1265 fps) from a 6" M19.

Their most powerful 135gr load (H110) they tested had ~574 ft/lb (1387 fps) from a 6" M19.

Their most powerful 135gr load (AA9) they tested had ~475 ft/lb (1258 fps) from a 2.5" M19.

Unique had the least amount of velocity lost (1185-1109=76 fps) between the 6" & 2.5" barrel, with the 135gr bullet, but it was the fastest powder tested & the 2nd slowest.

Lucky Gunner Labs lists Speer's factory/off-the-shelf Short Barrel 135gr load at 1069 fps from a 2" barrel. It was the slowest of all the lightweight bullets. You're better off handloading it if you want the maximum velocity from that bullet.

If you want minimum muzzle flash, CFE-Pistol is flash suppressed & is unimpressive if you like muzzle flash in you loads.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/rev...llistics-test/

.

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Waiting for the break of day

Also, note that Speer short bbl loads utilizing the 135gr GDHP are designed to maximize the bullet's performance. That bullet is designed to work at the velocity of around 900- 1000fps. That's why the factory keeps the velocity at the level it is. If you want more velocity, use a std GDHP 125 gr bullet. They will perform better at a higher velocity.

I use Unique for nearly all pistol loads, including short barrel .357 loads. The only time I use a slower powder is when I want maximum velocity in a longer barrel. I don't need to keep lots of different powders on hand.

Excellent point on bullet selection. Back in the day, the only way to get jacketed bullets to expand was to drive them fast, but today there are bullets designed to expand at much lower velocities. Driving a bullet designed for low velocity expansion at higher velocities will result in faster expansion and less penetration. Take a look at Lucky Gunner's gel testing where they compare short barrel loads fired from 2 inch barrels and 4 inch barrels.

Probably the best powder I ever used for full power loads was Dupont's SR4756. Started using it in the 1960's. Unfortunately, it was discontinued several years ago. Hodgdon ended up with the Dupont line of powders and imported it for a while, but finally dropped it.
I did luck up on 2 cases of it in 8oz cans right at the end of production.

Maybe I’m missing something here. Why would you want to squeeze every bit of velocity out of a short barrel gun when with all the new designed bullets out there you can get plenty of penetration and almost double the original diameter expansion with much lighter loads that for most are easier handle? Certainly follow up shots would be quicker and more accurate with less muzzle flash. From all the info I have read, for SD there is a point when too much penetration can be ineffective. Not arguing by any means, just trying to learn.

More velocity does mean more energy, but I agree, the factory short barrel loads do work well. My feeling is that if the extra energy results in the bullet passing completely through the target or if it results in very difficult to control recoil and poor follow-up shots, then it is a waste of effort. I'm perfectly happy to stoke my carry firearms with factory ammo and for my S&W Model 640-1, either 38 Special +P short barrel or 357 Magnum short barrel factory ammo.

Another powder that Hornady recommends and I use it is Viht N110 for heavier bullets and N105 for lighter bullets. Hornady says in book and I agree much less muzzle blast and flash. A great bullet for the snubby .357 is Speer Gold Dot short barrel 135 grain. That's the SD ammo that's kind of hard to find and costs $1+/ round. With that said you cant go wrong with some .38+ P loads in your gun. I like the Federal 130 gr HST they look funny but on Lucky Gunners tests they worked great

The Speer #14 & 14 loading manuals have a lot of good information re 135 gr. short barrel loads.

You raise an excellent question that not enough shooters ask. The answer is complicated.

Bullet construction has a lot to do with it.

For example, look at the Lucky Gunner tests for the Hornady American Gunner .38 Special load using the 125 gr XTP. It completely fails to expand at both 2" (821 fps) and 4" (892 fps) velocities. It penetrates an average of 16.7" and 19.6" respectively.

At .38 Special velocities, more velocity does equal more penetration, when it is still under the velocity threshold needed for bullet expansion.

In contrast, the .357 Mag American Gunner load using the same 125 gr XTP bullet achieves 1125 fps, expands reliably to an average of .48", but over penetrates with an average of 21.4". In a 4" barrel it achieves an average of 1379 fps, reliably expands to an average of .54" and penetrates to an average of 16.7".

In contrast to the .38 Special results, the increased velocity of the 4" load results in more rapid expansion, greater expansion, and less penetration. In fact, at 1300-1400 fps, the results are nearly ideal.

Once you start getting past that optimum velocity, you quickly reach a point where significantly earlier or greater expansion won't occur and you'll just get excessive penetration.

In short, self defense hollow points have a fairly narrow velocity envelope where they will deliver optimum expansion and stay within the 12" and 18" of penetration that the FBI feels is optimum.


Powder choice is also important and has a significant impact on recoil

Shooters generally understand that heavier bullets tend to recoil more than lighter bullets, but they fail to understand the effects of the weight of the powder charge on recoil. That powder charge retains its mass, even after it is converted from a solid to gas and hot plasma. More importantly, that mass exits the barrel at about 3 times the velocity of the bullet, so it creates significantly more recoil than an equal amount of projectile weight.

Let's look at two .357 Mag snub gun loads from the Speer reloading manual #8 using a Sierra 125 gr JHC bullet.

The first uses 10.5 grains of Unique and achieves a velocity of 1,337 fps in a 2 1/2" S&W Model 19.

The second load uses 19.0 grains of 2400 and achieves a near identical velocity.

Recoil for the Unique load is as follows:
Recoil Velocity: 12.4 ft/s
Recoil Energy: 5.9 ft•lbs
Recoil Impulse: 1.0 lb•s

Recoil for the 2400 load is as follows:
Recoil Velocity: 14.7 ft/s
Recoil Energy: 8.3 ft•lbs
Recoil Impulse: 1.1 lb•s

The recoil velocity for the load with the heavier powder charge is 19% greater, the recoil energy is 41% greater, and the recoil impulse is 10% greater. Significantly more recoil for exactly the same result.

If you push the 2400 load to the maximum of 19.5 grains, the velocity increases marginally to 1378 fps, and the recoil numbers are as follows:

Recoil Velocity: 15.1 ft/s
Recoil Energy: 8.8 ft•lbs
Recoil Impulse: 1.2 lb•s

That's an increase in recoil velocity of 22%, recoil energy of 49% and recoil impulse of 20% compared to the Unique load - for an increase in velocity of only 41 fps.

And the 2400 load will have significantly more muzzle flash as well as more powder residue.

----

In short, shooters should absolutely be re-thinking their choices, particularly in short barrel .357 revolvers, to focus on getting enough velocity to ensure optimum terminal performance rather than trying to get maximum velocity that quite often will produce less than optimum terminal performance, and excessive recoil, which negatively impacts both accuracy and the time needed to make an accurate follow up shot.

Power Pistol in a short barrel is a GREAT WAY to "light one up"
between shots if you smoke, for your buddies.

Bend over, ok, now watch this............

As stated in a post above Speer No.14 manual has short barrel loads for the .38 special, .38 + P and .357. This is with 110 to 135 grain Gold Dot bullets and medium burning rate powders like Power Pistol and Unique perform the best with short barrels and lighter bullets.

Meaning the short barrels do not have enough velocity (horse power) for reliable expansion with jacketed bullet weights above 148 grains.

For a powder in the about the same category as Unique or Power Pistol . Alliant claims that BE-86 is flash suppressed and in between Unique and Power Pistol for the burn . I have used a fair amount of it satisfactorily but never at night . Regards, Paul

As this thread has been turning , I will also put forth that maximum energy per se is not the desired goal for this gun/ calibre combination . What you want is a plentitude of power , decent control , and an acceptable level of the side effects of blast and flash . It would be a wise yard stick to be in the general neighborhood of the old " medium velocity " load of 125 JHP @ mid 1200's . Significantly more power than .38 +P , and equalling or exceeding the hottest 9mm +P+ .

Skip 158's generally , and XTP's of any weight . While there could be other viable bullet choices , good default choices would be Gold Dots of either 125 or 135gr, or the old school Rem scallop jacket 125 jhp , if anyone is presently offering it as a component .

There are a boat load of powders that can achieve this , including lots of recent introduction that I have yet to work with . Unique and AA 9 definitely .

I loaded some 170 grain SWC's over 1CC (~9.8 grains) of SR 4759 for my 10" Contender. They did not stabilize. Apparently, the Contender likes bullets in the lower weight range for the caliber. But that's a whole 'nother thread.
So I shot those loads in my 2" Taurus 605 snubbie, and at ten yards I had about a 1-2" group right on POA! Only thing was they smoke about like a black powder load. I use a soft lube on the 170 grain bullet. That, and the 4759 gives off quite a smoke screen. But I like accuracy - and power, in this case - so I'll probably load up a box or two of those for the Taurus. Sometimes you discover things while looking for something else.

Am found of using AA-7, Fed sp mag primer and Rem 125 gn 357 golden sabers for a load in between moderate and full bore 357 mag loads.

For 145-158 grain loads am using V V N110. As others described, much less flash/blast for slightly reduce velocity.

There are lots of options.

I agree with *most* of what you are saying. Folks are putting too much emphasis on velocity and are paying for it in excess recoil, excess muzzle flash, and slower follow up shots with no actual gain (and in some cases a reduction) in terminal performance.

I like the Remington 125 gr Golden Saber bullet in a 4" .38 Special revolver at about 900 fps, penetration is good but expansion is only just acceptable. By the time you get to 1000 fps it expands fine but starts to under penetrate just barely making 12". At 1100-1200 fps penetration is again fine but at 1200 fps it's also on the upper limit for penetration at around 17.5" to 18". That 1100 to 1200 fps range is a very narrow performance window, and availability as a reloading component is also spotty.

I also like the 135 gr Gold Dot and it's generally more available as a component. However it needs at least 950 fps for reliable minimum acceptable expansion, and in the 950 fps range penetration is around 13". 1100-1300 fps is ideal for the 135 gr Gold Dot as it will expand very nicely and penetrate 14" to 18" at those velocities. In that 200 fps window its a superb performer.

However, I also like the 125 gr XTP as it is available almost literally everywhere at decent prices, and it is exceptionally accurate in both revolvers and rifles. It does have a fairly narrow velocity envelope but it's right in the 1200 range you are talking about. 1150 to 1300 fps gives excellent expansion and penetration. It's not the widest window out there but it's wider than the window for the 125 gr GS.

More importantly, availability and reasonable cost mean I can shoot it a lot, and shooting it a lot leads to better bullet placement that offsets any minor expansion advantage the 125 GS or 135 GD may have.

Mostly it's about ensuring you are inside the expansion window for whatever hollow point you are using.

Speer 357 Magnum 135 gr. GDHP, Item # 23817 is a fine "Mild Magnum" round, with not much more recoil than the 135 gr. .38 +P offering. No idea of the velocity, but recoil is not a lot different from my old IPSC load of 158gr. swc/357 magnum brass/ non-magnum primers/4" barrel/5.5 gr. Unique/860 fps, chronoed.
AFAIK, The 357s are only sold in 20 round boxes, not like the .38 Spl +P, which you can get in 50 round boxes.
More expen$ive, but Remington 125 gr. Golden Sabers and the newer "Black Belt" ammo Have always gotten praises for being VERY adequate rounds, and are also highly thought of. Soooo....buy a few hundred of the components, load them to match or slightly better factory loads, desire, and keep the factory stuff for serious endeavors.

That was even determined on this forum after some discussion.

The stuff about "The barrel isn't long enough to burn the slow powders efficiently might have some weight, but they still give the highest velocities.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Groo here
Different gun but same idea.
The 1911 gets 90% of its speed in the first 3ins [measured from the
case head] as said by Shulmann of Shulmann barrels.
So a revolver should be similar.[yes there will be differences due to
BC gap and free bore of the cylinder but the idea will still work.
Call a revolver with a 1 7/8 to 2 inch "barrel - 3in.
And a 38spec load from a 4 in of "X" will be about "X times 90%"

And the highest recoil - significantly more recoil, even when the velocity gains are minimal.

I load my 158xtp .357 rounds with 12.2gr. of Vihtavuori N105. In the attached image you can see:

• Left two tables 627PC w/2.62" barrel. Best AVG 1217 fps
• Right two tables 686 w/4" barrel. Best AVG 1370 fps

This is a slow burning powder, but well suited for a 158gr. or more bullet in .357. The short barrel of the 627PC loses about 150fps to the 686 4" barrel. Standard Deviations are reasonable for reloads.

BTW, both are reasonably accurate at hitting POA at ~8yd.

Attached Images

627PC and 686 on VV N105 Powder.jpg (190.7 KB, 26 views)

Just once try shooting 6 full bore 357 Magnum loads in that snubbie with out hearing protection; your not going to have any in a self defense scenario. OUCH! Maybe to many years of load noises but its deafening. My ears rang for a day and the fireball in the evening was Impressive. My 66-2 2 1/2 barrel was accurate with any 357 load in the 125/158 gr loadings. At my age there is no way I could get more than 2 off inside a house or enclosed environment the blast/fireball would be horrible! Loaded mine at 38+P+ in 357 brass 6.0 gr of TiteGroup and a125 gr hollow point. Accurate with tolerable report w/o hearing protection.

BE-86 is flash suppressed and fits between Unique and Power Pistol. Alliant Powder website has a lot of BE-86 load data in 357 Mag, both lead and jacketed.

I have to agree with this if you are dead-set on 158gr bullets.

Here's chrono data I posted a while back from a 2" barrel:

Speer Gold Dot 135gr Short Barrel 357 Mag JHP
1024-1042-1062-1052-1061

Hornady XTP 158gr 357 Mag JHP
1016-1007-1025-1031-1010

Federal 158gr 357 Mag JSP
1023-990-971-979-984

Magtech Guardian Gold 125gr 357 Mag JHP
1032-1015-1031-950-1020-1008

Buffalo Bore 19e 158gr 357 Mag Low Recoil JHP
994-1000-991-1034-1018

I have not tested them, but other folks have and Underwood's 158gr 38 SPL +P clocks at almost 1100 fps from a 2" barrel and almost 1200 from a 4" - basically exactly the same as the 357 loads above.

Now, there is a tiny bit more of a difference if you go with the classic 125gr 357 load. I chrono'd Rem UMC 125gr at ~1200fps from a Kimber K6S, and the hottest 125gr 38 SPL I have seen is around 1100fps from a snubbie. It's only 100fps, but like me you want every bit you can get, you are marginally better with the 357.