Ammo For Old Winchesters

I have several Winchester 1894 rifles in 38-55 mostly from the early 1900s. The problem with shooting lead bullets, accuracy is all over the map with lots of flyers. Groups are poor at 100 meters, if at all. I was going through my ammo components and found a full box of Hornady .375 spire point bullets, wt. 270 gr., from my hunting days in Alaska. I happened to have an old Winchester takedown barrel in 38-55 sitting next to me so I stuck the point down the muzzle. It was a tight fit. Can jacketed bullets be used safely with reduced loads to improve shooting accuracy in old Winchesters? I don't plan to hunt Kodiak bears with them, just put a few holes in paper. What say you all!

During the first half of the 20th Century there was relatively little standardization of bore and groove diameters. You have several .38-55 Winchesters, and I suspect that if you slugged all of the barrels you would find considerable difference even with only one manufacturer's products.

Whether or not your jacketed bullets would work well in your rifles is a question that can only be answered by experimentation. Perhaps needless to say, those pointed bullets have no business being loaded into a tubular magazine.

Accuracy with cast bullets depends on a number of factors. Primarily the fit of the bullet to the groove diameter, but also a bullet weight and profile that works with the rifling twist of your barrel(s). Many rifles perform significantly better with bullets of 0.001" to 0.002" over actual groove diameter.

Several bullet casting companies can provide bullets in weights, designs, and profiles intended for the older Winchester .38-55 barrels, and some will offer those bullets sized .375, .376, .377, .378", and perhaps others to accommodate known variations of the older rifles.

A final note: metallurgy has advanced significantly since the early 1900's, and your older barrels may not stand up well to long-term use of jacketed bullets. Personally, I would be more comfortable shooting the old timers with good cast bullets at modest pressures and velocities.

No .38-55 rifles here, but I do shoot several old Winchester and Marlin rifles in other calibers and have very good results with properly sized and configured cast bullets.

Jacketed bullets are pretty forgiving of a bore diameter that's slightly undersize or oversize and may shoot very well. Cast bullets aren't. I'd start with a Lyman manual. It will have at least a few mild jacketed and cast loads that are safe in any gun in good condition.

As previously mentioned, early barrel steel on those old 38-55 & 32-40 1894’s were quite mild and meant for black powder lead bullet loads. If the barrel doesn’t say nickel steel or made for smokeless, then shoot only lead with a mild charge of smokeless powder. I’ve had great luck with cast bullets (20-1 lead/tin) and sized to .379” with a very mild charge of Unique in a Starline 2.125” case.

I had a sizer custom made at .380''.Since then,with a charge of 4198 at around 1350/1400fps,my 38-55 shoots into 1 1/2'' at 100 with a 330gr.
Your Winchester's twist might prefer bullets in the 250 to 275 gr though.

I thought perhaps he wanted to use jacketed bullets. One of the great advantages to cartridges like the .38-55, .32-40, .30-40 Krag, etc., is the fact that you can load cast bullets to the same velocities that you can load jacketed bullets to, provided you stick with the approximate bullet weights the cartridges were originally intended for.

Of course, bullet diameter has to be right and the alloy mix must be compatible with the load. Once all is right, accuracy can be exemplary and a jacketed bullet offers no advantage over cast.

The editor of the CAST BULLET ASSOCIATION magazine mentioned many years ago that the softest bullet that has proper fit and does not lead the bore for the intended velocity will be the most accurate. I've found that is almost always true with regard to rifle bullets. That's probably true for handgun bullets to, but I'd have to look at my notes first.

Lots of good powders for .38-55, but I've had best luck with IMR-4198 and H4895. Reloder 7, 5744, and SR4759 are worth looking at, too. Good luck-

Having a little experience with both Wins and Marlins of late 1890s to early 1900s, I have found they all shot cast bullets better than jackets. That’s true from 25/20 through 45/70. The diameter of bullet is individual trait of rifle. I’m firm believer in using softest alloy possible with 20:1 tin additive.
Powder for 38/55 would be IMR-3031 or 4198. I used same loads in 375 Win with cast bullets and blown out 30/30 brass.

littledog said:

As previously mentioned, early barrel steel on those old 38-55 & 32-40 1894’s were quite mild and meant for black powder lead bullet loads. If the barrel doesn’t say nickel steel or made for smokeless, then shoot only lead with a mild charge of smokeless powder. I’ve had great luck with cast bullets (20-1 lead/tin) and sized to .379” with a very mild charge of Unique in a Starline 2.125” case.

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1894 Winchesters were made for smokeless powder. The 3030 was never a BP cartridge. In fact Win came up with the 32 Win the smallest practical bore for die hards who wanted to reload with black powder.

You might slug the bore, then you would have the correct size for cast bullets. There are plenty of companies that will cast lead bullets to your specs.
Never use jacketed bullets in old Winchesters, or any of the old rifles. Will wear the bore quite rapidly, even if it is marked "nickel steel".
For more info check in with the Winchester Collectors Association forum for more guidance.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

Correct bullet dia with respect to the groove dia of the OP's rifle is the key to accuracy. As has been mentioned,the 38-55 can be all over the place in bore/groove diameters.

The 1894 will certainly handle any sane smokeless load.
The very first of the production did not have Nickle Steel bbl's, but instead a softer steel was used.
The intro of the 30-30 in 1895 brought about the Nickle steel bbls for the 1894. The 30WCF smokeless only loads in that caliber made that happen.

The 38-55 and 32-40 calibers that the 1894 was first brought out in a year earlier were BP rounds.
Soon after that they too were loaded with smokeless loads as well as BP for quite a while after.

Keep the loads within reason and the bbl's will last lifetimes.

The 38-55 was orig a Target rd designed by the Ballard Rifle co. Same with the 32-40.
Lead bullet, modest velocities.
Ballard was bought out by Marlin.
The calibers became 38-55 Marlin & Ballard and 32-40 Mar & Ballard.

Winchester simply chambered them and placed their own name (WCF) on them.

Win 38-55

I reload for a Winchester in 38-55. You will be better off using lead bullets around 250 gr, that are not hard cast. These slightly softer bullets will expand to fit your rifling. First you need to determine what your bore diameter is. This is not hard to do and you can do it at home. Then size your bullets, or get bullets sized .001-.002 larger than bore diameter. I would not recommend shooting jacketed bullets. Those old barrels are a softer steel and designed to shoot lead bullets. That is unless you have a modern replica.

I'm a big fan of the .38-55 and got into it through the back door via the .375 Winchester.

The .38-55 has more than its share of quirks and the .375 Win contributed to those quirks.

Bore Diameter:

As noted above there is a lot of variation in .38-55 bores. They'll range all the way from .377-.379" in a modern .38-55 to .381" to .383" in a vintage .38-55.

Jacketed bullets are generally found in .375" diameter only, and of those, .375" bullets suitable for the .38-55 or .375 Win in terms of weight, point shape and core alloy hardness (for expansion) are pretty scarce and run from "very hard to find" to "unobtainable".

Fortunately, cast bullets can normally be found in .377", .379", .380" and .381" diameters and in a variety of suitable weights, and in both plain base and gas checked varieties.

Brass Length:

.38-55 brass comes in two basic lengths. The original 2.125" .38-55 case and the modern 2.080" case used by Winchester since the .38-55 was resurrected. There's a reason for this.

When Winchester introduced the .375 Win in 1978 it was basically a .38-55 operating at a much higher pressure - 52,000 CUP versus 30,000 CUP for the 38-55. Rather than using a longer case (like the .357 Mag versus .38 Special) to prevent the .375 Win from being chambered in a .38-55, Winchester took a different approach. They instead used a true .375" diameter bullet in the .375 Win and used a slightly shorter case length of 2.020".

This approach ensured that if a .375 Win were fired in a .38-55, the undersized bullet would pass through the bore with minimum pressure, and the shorter case would have ample room to release the bullet even in a "tight" .38-55 chamber.

Conversely, Winchester also designed the .375 Win chamber with a long leade and large throat diameter that would enable a .38-55 cartridge with the modern .377" standard jacketed bullet diameter to release the bullet in the .375 Win chamber. The bullet would get sized to the .375" bore, but the max pressure for the ,375 Win would not be exceeded.

The end result is .38-55 brass in two lengths - the original 2 1/8", expressed today as 2.125" and the shorter modern case at 2.080". Then there is the .375 Win case at 2.020".

The shorter length also had some production benefit for Winchester as they could use the same basic case to make the .38-55 that they used for the .30-30, omitting the additional step of necking it down to form .30-30 brass. The 2.125" case can't be formed without wasting a lot of excess brass that has to be trimmed from the 30-30 case, and .30-30 is produced in massive numbers compared to the niche .38-55.

Starline does runs of .38-55 brass in both lengths. Starline also makes high quality .375 Win brass from time to time and it's worth picking up when it's available. The alternative is to fireform it from .30-30 Win brass, and the end result has slightly thinner case walls as it's designed for the .30-30 pressures. If you're in a .38-55 brass drought, .30-30 brass can be blown out to .38-55 as well, with the qualifier that it comes up a bit short of the 2.080" length.

The process I've used for form .30-30 brass in either the .375 or .38-55 chamber is 9 grains of unique loaded in the case with the case them filled to the base of the neck with cream of wheat. A pea sized wad of toilet paper is then inserted in the neck to hold the load in place. When fired vertically, the result is a slightly short .375 or .38-55 case with a nice even case mouth. (If you fire it horizontally, the case mouth will be lopsided and need more trimming to true up, further shortening the case.)

As it is, I buy both .38-55 and .375 win brass from Starline 500 at a time.

Case Wall Thickness:

Case wall thickness also varies. Winchester .38-55 brass has a thicker neck designed for the .3775" jacketed bullets they use in their factory load. If you try inserting a .380" to 382" in bullet in a Winchester case, you can encounter problems with the chamber be too tight to accept the completed round, or not have quite enough room to expand and release the bullet when fired without excessive pressure.

The Starline brass has a thinner .0072" wall thickness at the case mouth and works well with cast bullets.

Rifling Twist:

Rifling twists in .38-55 vary from 1-20" to 1-18" in older .38-55s to 1-16" to 1-14" twist in newer .38-55s. Mine Winchester LF in .38-55 measures at 1 in 15" and gives excellent accuracy with flat based 245-250 grain bullets loaded with Unique at black powder velocities.

Generally speaking for cast bullets you want a slower twist to minimize fouling issues, especially if you use black powder, but you also need enough twist to stabilize a long bullet like a .325 grain flat nose, if you go that route.

My Winchester BB 94 in .375 Win has a faster 1-12 twist and it can be problematic with cast bullets - we'll get into that a bit deeper in a minute.

Selecting Bullet Diameter for the .38-55:

Someone mentioned that case bullets are usually more accurate when they are .001" to .002" over bore diameter. That's a general rule for all cast bullet shooting, but you also need to consider the chamber and throat dimensions with the .38-55 and especially with the .375 Win.

Remember that large chamber and long throat Winchester used for the .375 Win that would accommodate a .38-55 round? That extra wide and long throat will cause big problems with cast bullets if you are sizing them for the bore, rather than the throat.

What happens is a lot of gas goes past that undersized (for the throat) bullet and gas cutting removes lead and deposits it further up in the barrel.

In addition, that bullet is now traveling pretty fast when it encounters the rifling at the end of that long throat and with any alloy soft enough to obturate properly, the bullet will skid in the rifling a bit before it starts to spin and that causes serious leading in the first portion of the bore.

You may see that to a lesser extent in a modern .38-55 with a .377" bore, where the chamber and throat are still large enough to accomodate a larger diameter cast bullet. Just go ahead and use the larger bullet diameter, using due caution to work the load up accordingly, understanding pressures may be higher.

You might lose a little accuracy if you are more than .002" over groove diameter - but you'll lose a lot less accuracy than you would otherwise to gas cutting and leading with a bullet that is too small for the throat.

Alloy Hardness:

Some shooters assume that "faster" means a harder alloy is needed. That's not quite the case.

The alloy hardness needs to match the pressure of the load. The alloy needs to be soft enough to obturate quickly in the bore and prevent excessive gas cutting, particularly with a plain base cast bullet.

In the .38-55 there's never a need for anything harder than Lyman No 2 (BHN=15), and a 20-1 lead to tin mix (BHN=10) works well at black powder pressures or low pressure smokeless loads duplicating black powder velocities.

When I could find pure plumbers lead, I'd reserve it for 1-20 alloy.
With wheel weights readily available, I'd use 9 pounds of wheel weights and 1 pound of 50/50 bar solder to create an alloy very close to Lyman No 2.

If I planned to hunt with my .38-55 or .45-70, I went with the 1-20 alloy for the improved expansion and less risk of fragmentation at black powder era velocities.

For the .375 Win, I'll use a 280 grain gas checked bullet and use the Lyman No 2 equivalent.

I haven't read it in a long time and I don't know if it's available online, but there was a comprehensive article about handloading the .38-55 in the April 2001 (#210) issue of HANDLOADER magazine. A new reproduction Winchester or Browning 1885 single shot was used for load development. Five bullets from about 250 grains to 325 grains and about as many powders were used along with soft (8 BHN) and hard (16 BHN) versions of each bullet.

Drm50 said:

1894 Winchesters were made for smokeless powder. The 3030 was never a BP cartridge. In fact Win came up with the 32 Win the smallest practical bore for die hards who wanted to reload with black powder.

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It's true that the .30 WCF was never a black powder cartridge and the 1894 was designed to handle smokeless powder, but Winchester wanted to release the gun ASAP. They initially released the 1894 in .38-55 and .32-40, while they were still developing the .30 WCF (.30-30) smokeless load. The .38-55 and .32-40 were definitely black powder cartridges at that time. As mentioned earlier, barrels intended for smokeless powder were marked "Nickel Steel - Especially for Smokeless Powder".

The early .30-30 smokeless loads were very hard on the cases (made them brittle) and it's assumed the mercuric priming was to blame. I've got a full Winchester green label box of .30 WCF shells with a printed sheet inside that warns that smokeless powder cases must not be reloaded because of metallurgical changes after firing (I don't remember the exact words and the box has been sealed in plastic).

The .32 Special was the last cartridge released for the 1894 (around 1905-06). You are correct, that it was designed for shooters with rudimentary equipment to reload with black powder. Many of the early .32 Special 1984's came with the funky wedge shaped smokeless powder rear sight.

Here are the barrel markings on an early .32 Winchester Special. Note the smokeless Powder stamp.



This .38-55 shipped November 5, 1905, which is really close to the .32 Special above. You'll note that it also has the definitive Winchester proofs, but is not smokeless powder marked.