I was poking around Hodgdon's reloading data for .223 Remington and saw something odd.

It lists a load using a 55gr Hornady FMJ bullet over 3.2gr of Clays with a velocity of only 1060fps.

What the heck kind of load is THAT?

Most of the "normal" .223 loads use 8-9 times more powder and are 2-1/2 to 3 times higher velocity.

For example: the same type and weight bullet shows using 25.3gr of H335 with a velocity of 2799fps

So what is up with the super light, slow, whimpy load using Clays?

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It's called a reduced load.

A lot of reloaders were looking for 22lr ammo equivalent/replacement.

I'd be afraid that may stick a round in the barrel.

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SWCA1967 SWHF244

Well, it IS a "published load"... Probably work in a bolt action. Another question might be WILL IT (reliably) WORK THE ACTION ON A SEMI-AUTOMATIC RIFLE? Or pistol?

Cheers!

P.S. You still need to use a primer to make them go BANG!

Besides being used for plinking/target practice, those loads are frequently used for turkey hunting where rifles are legal for (spring) turkey. Probably helps if you aren't fluent with your turkey call.

Captain Obvious! How ya' been man? We don't see much of you around here...

Seriously though, got any other examples of loads reduced to a 15% powder charge and 35% velocity?

I didn't see any other powders on their site that were reduced to that degree. If it is safe to do with Clays, why not other powders?

I also have to wonder how accurate can a load like this be?

Exactly.

Has anybody actually tried this?

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Maybe a subsonic load for suppressors?

That's a good thought.
Any ideas why Clays specifically? Why not something similar with Titegroup or HP38 (their next slower and next faster) powders? Why is Clays the only reduced load like this?
The whole thing just seems odd...

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I tried IMR Trail Boss once. Won't cycle my AR15 M4, but it was
quiet, no recoil, about 7" low at 10yds.

Just saying...…

The Best to you and your Endeavors.

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That's about the kind of results I would expect from the Clays load too. Hence my real question - what's the point?

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I never could see much point in the reduced jacketed loads in a rifle, either. These have been around a long time, however and many have been published in paper load manuals (Speer, for example) and other publications for decades. People have different needs and wants and perhaps some find reduced loads useful for some very specific purpose(s).

Chances are slim that a reduced load will shoot to the same point of impact that a regular hunting load would be zeroed for, thereby necessitating a sight change. Accuracy? I don't know, but would guess a reduced load would generally be less accurate than one fired at the velocity for which a particular bullet was designed to be fired at. Twist rate? May be a factor as well.

Reduced loads (often cast bullet loads) were promoted by some gunwriters in the '60s. Whether these same writers actually used them is certainly suspect.

There is probably lots of information on reduced loads if you want to do the research. I'd have to put them in the same category as most creations of dubious worth, something there is no lack of in the realm of guns and handloading.

Very informative answer. I appreciate you taking the time to type it up. Your thoughts on the value of this info pretty much match mine. Thanks.

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Just something fun to plink with.



I've loaded and shot reduced loads in 30-30 and 303 Savage. 100 grain half jacket bullet and some pistol powder which I do not remember off hand. Sort of like shooting an adult sized 22.



I can see reduced loads being handy for removing varmints from the garden and the like.

Someone is having fun. I will stick to one of my 22's that are accurate for that speed. Each to their own. I do have toned down loads in 30 caliber.

I use 4.0 Red Dot with that bullet for plinking. Around 1000 fps, +/-, and minute of beer can. Just a fun load. Works fine in a bolt action, but I doubt it would cycle an auto.

This is America! We don't need no stinking "Reduced Loads"! We just buy a gun that is in a cartridge that performs to the specifics we desire. Well there was a time in our past when you could walk into a gun store and walk out with hundreds of different performing rifles. But currently and a long time ago, "Making Do" was the order of the day.

But in the name of making do, there are two basic solutions. 1) Chamber Adapters & 2) Alternative (reduced) Loads.

Since I already reload, why not make a 30-30 that performs like a 32-20 or a 32 S&W Long. They have turned out more accurate than using adapters!

Not shooters have been brain washed into thinking that the gun you hand them will kick like a mule and blow out your ear drums. Reduced loads help ease them into shooting, yet allow them to use the full size firearm that would be on a future hunt.

Lastly. not all hunted animals require full power elephant loads! Especially when trying to rid the farm of rats!

Ivan

All good info. I thought I might also mention that this Clays load isn't one that someone just came up with yesterday. The pressure is listed as 37,000 CUP - so I'm thinking it was developed before piezio sensors and rating ammo pressure in PSI became the standard. This isn't a load that was developed during the 22 ammo shortage a few years ago, or during this ammo & reloading components shortage either.
As others have said, I'm thinking bolt gun plinking load.

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I thought the .223 was a reduced load!

It's interesting to see that load coming from Hodgdon! If they publish it I'd have no concerns about its safety.

H4895 lends itself to reduced loads too. If you can find a published load for your cartridge using H4895, you can use 60% of the max load for a reduced load or something in between if that's too slow for you.

https://imrpowder.com/wp-content/upl...ifle-loads.pdf

There are also greatly reduced loads using Blue Dot. My brother has used them in 22-250 and loves them.

To Bee Or 223, That Is The Question (Revisited)

37,000cup for 3.2gr of clays???? Too many zero's

I shoot a lot of reduced loads in a 14" contender chambered in 223rem. clays, bullseye, unique, am select for powders just to name a few. I swage and pc 70gr fn's and they do pretty good out to 50yds and putt a good thump on whatever they hit.

You're right. I mistyped that. It should be 3,700 CUP...

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I've loaded scads of reduced 223 loads for years. Great fun and they seem to kill cans at 100 yards just as well as 3,200 fps loads. They make good vermin loads too as well as being easy on the barrel. When I was an AC advisor to an NG unit, the armory had an indoor rifle range, but it was only rated for pistol ammo. The reduced loads were a perfect match and didn't harm the armor plate and they made for enjoyable lunch hour target practice sessions. The reduce recoil also helped ID any errors in shooting technique too while using your service or match rifles.

The various 50 or 55 grain varmint bullets (Bliz, SX, Etc.) do very well at reduce velocities.

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Clays is an excellent plinker powder. Position insensitive. Big green fluffy flakes are easy to spot in the case (unlike evil Titegroup). Meters well. Burns clean. Clays is my goto powder for making plinker loads.

Maybe the reduced load in the .223 would do for tree rats and be a bit safer when taking those elevated shots. More like using a .22lr.
You still have to be extra careful but the down range travel would be much less than a full load .223.

Young shooters would probably appreciate the lesser loads for their quieter report when getting used to using a big boy CF.

I use reduced loads in a great number of CF rifle reloads. Everything from 30-06 to 9.3x74R. Usually RedDot, Unique and sometimes Bullseye.
The 9.3x74R I use 9mm Makarov 95gr jacketed bullets and RedDot. They print to the POA in my DR at 50m with the 200m rear sight blade up.

I think from the indicated velocity it was intended as a subsonic load. Use?? At least they furnished and published some data for that powder for a subsonic load.

I'm not reducing any .223 loads but I shoot lots of 357 reduced loads. Alliant calls them Cowboy loads and they work great. Instead of 2400 I use American Select and about 1/3 the powder.

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We call these loads 38 Special.

3 1/2gr per load yields 7 times the number of 223 loads from a pound of powder. That is useful to some.

Since I reload...................

I load factory Dup. loads for hunting and drop these loads down for light target loads, that are easy on the weapon and my body
and teeth, fillings.........

with all my shotgun, rifle , revolver and pistol loads.

In my .22 and .30 cal. with X-Lite loads, the rifles barely move when they are fired........
and I don't even need ear protection from the muzzle noise.

Fun for the kids for short range learning and plinking, out to 50 yards.

Even though I have developed "Reduced loads" with fast pistol powders up to Unique powder, I prefer a 66% case fill with a rifle powder, that does a little better on ES and accuracy, in my rifles.

I have a X-Lite 12 Ga. 7/8 oz load that does 1130fps for Skeet that does not move the barrel or POA, when fired in my heavy O/U shotgun.

I have posted several times about my "Slow" pistol & revolver loads, while testing out loads........
like my latest with the 2" snub nose J frame with the 130gr JHP HST "Micro load" by Federal........ (823 fps )
where one test load averaged 573 fps !!