45-70 powder for reloading

jake1945

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I have an original Springfield trapdoor rifle. I shoot black powder in it with no issues. However, now I want to use a powder like Pyrodex or Triple 7 under a soft lead 500 grain bullet.
Can someone recommend a powder charge for that?
I do know that using Pyrodex you still have to clean your rifle as tho you shot BP. I'm trying to get away from that cleaning procedure.
 
I have an original Springfield trapdoor rifle. I shoot black powder in it with no issues. However, now I want to use a powder like Pyrodex or Triple 7 under a soft lead 500 grain bullet.
Can someone recommend a powder charge for that?
I do know that using Pyrodex you still have to clean your rifle as tho you shot BP. I'm trying to get away from that cleaning procedure.

Yeah if your only reason to shoot Pydrodex is to reduce the cleaning, you won't accomplish your mission. It's dirtier and more corrosive than black.

I'd say keep shooting the real stuff.
 
The trick to cleaning black powder is lots of cold water. Almost all the fouling compounds are water-soluble. Hot water works but tends to cause "flash rusting" in the bore from the high temperature and humid environment.
In an original rifle, I think staying with black powder is the safest choice.
 
There are many recipes for mild smokeless loads for 45-70. In many articles and manuals they will post mild loads for older, weaker designs such as your trapdoor and heavier loads for stronger rifles. It should go without saying that you must stay with the mild loads.

As for the “fake” Black Powders, practical experience shows that they tend to be more corrosive than the original and require more extensive and special cleaning to prevent rust, etc. I personally refuse to use any of them. YMMV

Froggie
 
45-70 Govt

Your post caught my eye. Just getting ready to reload
20 cartridges.
I'm not much help for you. I stay away from Black Power
because of the fore mentioned.

I have been using Smokeless IMR 4198 (a mild reload). I use
the Oregon Trail 45/70 Lead 300gr Flat Point (.459dia.), and
Starline Brass. Large Rifle Primer Brand doesn't matter.

The Best to you and your Endeavors.
 

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Trapdoor Powders

I switch back and forth between black and smokeless in my original Trapdoors.

To be honest, I use light loads of smokeless powder with a soft cast 405 grain bullet with the best success for accuracy and convenience. I load the rifle loads to 1,300 fps to duplicate the old Frankford Arsenal army loads. My favorite powder is SR 4759, but unless you have a good stock of it, it is now unavailable. 2400, 4227 and 4198 are good substitutes.

If you do use smokeless in your original Trapdoor, you'll find that it shoots pretty high compared to BP loads. I keep an original TD with a tall front sight for my smokeless loads and as such, the trajectory scale (1879 sight) works well out to extended ranges, at least to 1,000 yards.
 
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I use a Black Powder substitute called American Pioneer. You load it by volume, just like BP. Clean-up can be done with Hot/cold water, or with a smokeless solvent like Hoppe's No 9 (I use Shooters Choice products.)

Actual loading bulk powders like Black Powder or American Pioneer is pretty straight forward. Prep, Prime, and Flair cases as normal. I use a muzzel loader powder measurer and set it for the desired grains of volume. If you just pour it in the case it will be very loose and "fluffy" and need a great deal of compressing. I use a 30" drop tube and get around a 1/2" shorter powder column, this will hardly compress any!

For a recommended load, IN MODERN BRASS, I use 55 to 60 grain volume with the 500 grain RN by Lyman. I seat the bullet snug against a 1/8" lube cookie and crimp with the die. For Single shot rifles No Pressure crimps are recommended, (some champions like a loose fit some have a mild holding crimp.)

If you don't wish to use a lube cookie, a simple way to keep everything lubed and any fouling very soft is to slather Crisco on the bullet before chambering. (a little messy, but very effective). Some people swab the bore every shot, and some every 5 rounds, your choice.

The recoil for a 500 grain RN bullet is much much higher than the 405 gr FN and 300 grain is almost relatively speaking, pleasant.

Bullet alloy should be zero to 5% tin, no zinc or antimony, in other words 95 to 100% Lead. I think 3% tin (AKA 30:1) is the perfect compromise. If you experiment with diameter and alloy, the rifle will tell you what will be the most accurate.

My trapdoor is a 1875 production carbine and they don't use the 500 grain loading, but my Shiloh Sharps does at longer distance.

Have fun!

Ivan
 
Ivan has excellent advice. I however, am a confirmed black powder addict and only use Goex or Swiss brand blackpowder. I have a Shiloh Sharps in 45/110 and use the 405 grain bullet and 110 grains of black powder 2f by volume with a standard primer. I use a drop tube to get the powder in the case.
 
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I don’t shoot anything but the Holy Black in my Trapdoors or my Sharps! Cleaning is easy. It’s not like cleaning a cap n’ ball revolver!
 
Recent Lyman reloading manuals have pages of safe smokeless loads for older .45-70s, and pages of stout loads for modern guns
 
I only used 777 once and will never use it again. I loaded up a box of 44-40 for my 44 Double Action Frontier to shoot at the range one day and the recoil was fierce! It was so heavy that I dislodged the spring steel trigger guard with my middle finger during recoil. I ran the rest of the box in my Model 1866 and they were the heaviest recoil load I had ever shot in the rifle and chronographed at 1400 fps, way more than I shoot in that brass frame rifle. I have shot both the rifle and revolver with 3F BP and the felt recoil was way less than 777. My experience with Pyrodex was similar, heavy recoil compared with black powder, but not as bad as 777. I have heard good things about American Pioneer, but have not shot it. There are a couple of shooters at our Muzzleloader competitions that use it in their percussion rifles and are happy with it.

I shoot long range with a 45-90 Sharps reproduction and get decent results with 500g lead, BUT I get my best accuracy with hard lead or jacketed bullets that run around 350 grains. Many shooters rely on 3031 for 45-70s, but I like 5744 just as well. Black powder is great for truly authentic buffalo loads, but too dirty for me when shooting a lot of rounds, so 5744 is now my go to powder. I cannot tell you what works best in a 45-70, since I have never shot a 500 grain bullet out of a 45-70, especially in a trap door and personally I would not do it without lots of research first. Shooting a 45-70 with a 500g bullet could provide the potential for very high pressures trying to accelerate that heavy a bullet down the barrel?
 
I have shot a lot of Pyrodex. The stuff about it being more corrosive in not true. Like black powder it attracts moisture but the old corrosive tales are from the days of corrosive priming compounds. Pyrodex shines in that the fouling does not build up and gum up like black powder fouling and require periodic patches in the barrel. I shoot black too so know them both. As far as cleaning ballistol and water mix does a great job.
 
Take a look at Blackhorn 209 it's a Blackpowder Substutite They have Cartridge Load Data on their web site I haven't used it for Cartridges but have used it in Muzzleloaders Cleaning is much easier and accuracy has been good
 
I have a reproduction Trapdoor Carbine and a Pedersoli Rolling Block with 28”’barrel both in 45-70. 34 - 36 grains of IMR-3031 will run about 1250 fps which is about the same velocity when using blackpowder.

I have had great success with this load. Using a hard cast lead 405 gr. bullet it will shoot clear through a buffalo at 165 yards. I also have shot a clean stage at 600 yards using the same load.

However both of my guns are modern reproductions. As I said my smokeless loads are intended to give the same velocity of a caseful of blackpowder. I have never measured actual velocity with a chronograph. My number is a estimate based on reloading manuals figures.

However with a real deal antique Trapdoor I would use blackpowder due to respect for it’s great, great Granddaddy steel.
 
Accurate Arms ( Western Powders) has loading data for Trapdoor Springfield Rifles @ 19,000 PSI loadings with Accurate #5744 .
This may be a better option than loading with a black powder substitute.

They also make a black powder substitute called Blackhorn #209 , I've no experience with it but here is sites for information on both 5744 and Blackhorn #209 .
Blackhorn 209
Western Powders, Inc.
It may give you another option in this time of shortages ,
Good Luck,
Gary
 
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