Yet ANOTHER 45 Colt ?

[STORMINORMAN]

I was recently gifted a pound of PYRODEX P and thought I might give it a try with a MBC 200gr coated FP bullet in my Pietta SA clone...

I have three questions:

1). What would be a good load for this bullet? Hodgdons does show load data for their "Triple 7 2F" product of 35 grains (as measured by volume) for a 200gr LRNFP bullet @ 959 fps, but I'm unsure if this does equally apply to the PYRODEX P which is a fff granulation. I'm also not sure I really need to shoot quite that fast to start off, either.

2). The LEE Dippers Slide Chart lists that specific powder, PYRODEX P with a corresponding column that shows the weight, i.e., the 2.2 cc dipper corresponds to 26.7gr.and this is approximately what a heaping dipper weighs on a scale. This amount of powder fills the 45 Colt case to within about a 1/4" from the rim, which conveniently happens to also be the distance from the base of the bullet to the crimp grove as well. It would appear to me the LEE dipper (which is marked by volume) chart shows the actual weights for BP substitutes vs. referencing BP weight by volumetric measure: how much powder (as measured in BP volumetric terms) should this 26.7gr actually represent? (There must be some conversion factor here, somewhere...)

3). Multiple other online sources also indicate an alternate (& even more traditional?) way to load black powder in pistol cartridge cases is to just "fill'er up" minus room for the bullet (i.e., leave no empty space or use some kind of filler material or wad): they claim you really can't cram enough black powder in to pose a pressure problem in a modern steel framed pistol. You might not like the blast or the recoil, but pressure level is not supposed to be a concern.

So, i is my suggested bullet & load as described above safe?

Thanks in advance for your kind consideration.

Cheers!

P.S. The above does not include the warnings about reducing Triple 7 and/or the BLACKHORN 209 powders: BLACKHORN shows 24.4 gr for a 200gr bullet in 45 Colt!

 

[alwslate]

You probably cannot cram enough BP or Pyrodex in any revolver ctg case to create high pressure. And Pyrodex needs some compression to ignite properly according to Hodgdon.

 

[BSA1]

I am curious about how well your bullet will perform. The preferred bullet is soft lead and weighs 250 - 255 gr. with natural lube such as beeswax. (It has been so long I don’t remember what lube I use). Petroleum based lubes will mess up the inside of the barrel and gum up the gun in just a few rounds. What is the coating on the bullet made from?

Also degrease the inside of your gun before shooting it. Petroleum based lubes and oils gum up quickly when used with blackpowder. Ballistol is great for the oiling and cleaning of blackpowder guns.

With blackpowder firearms forget everything you have learned about smokeless ammunition.

 

[alwslate]

Cornmeal is often used as a filler with loads that are not heavy enough to completely fill the case. As mentioned above you would be better off using a 255 gr softer lead bullet with a radiused base that allow for the bullet to bump up to fit cyl throats or .454 bores. Hornady does or has made a 255 gr bullet for BP revolvers. And as to 2F Triple 7 vs 3F Pyrodex Hodgdon shows basically all Triple 7 loads as developing higher pressure than Pyrodex loads.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

I did find an actual black powder brass measure in an inherited black powder tackle box: at the 35gr mark the powder was very close to the 2.2cc LEE dipper and heaping dippers weighed close to 27gr on a digital scale. It did take a bit more powder to reach the level in a case that would compress the powder about 1/8th inch, leaving no air space (void).

This amount of PYRODEX P then corresponded to 40gr by volume in the brass BP measure. I'm told that's the MAX recommended for a 250-255gr lead bullet, so it shouldn't be a problem with my 200gr MBCs (IBD #4 HiTech coating). I found some ancient blackpowder TC MaxiLube and used it to load the coated bullet. One internet source regarding the extended use of coated bullets with black powder indicated almost no lead fouling but the typical black powder residue. We shall see...

I cleaned (the already clean Pistolero) barrel and cylinder with alcohol & loaded up 10 with a slight roll crimp in nickel cases and have a couple rounds loaded with CFE-Pistol to compare vis-a-vis shot placement.

I will report back after the next range trip. I plan to pull the cylinder and brush the barrel & cylinder with hot water and some Balistol at the range after this initial test run. Doubtful that 10 rounds are going to gum up the internals, one would hope...?

Cheers!

P.S. Wish me luck!

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I highly suggest a heavy roll crimp when shooting BP or a substitute. You want the bullet to remain in place long enough for the powder to fully ignite.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

I highly suggest a heavy roll crimp when shooting BP or a substitute. You want the bullet to remain in place long enough for the powder to fully ignite.

Thanks for the suggestion: I can easily apply more crimp to the 2nd cylinder's worth...

Cheers!

 

[twodog max]

First and very important is to use a lube either homemade or bought for blackpowder or a BP substitute. The fouling from Pyrodex is nasty stuff and a correct lube will make accuracy and cleaning much easier.
Secondly BP and subs are loaded by volume not weight. Take a wooden dowel and mark on it the length from the crimp groove to the base of the bullet. Fill the case until it is a 1/16th of an inch or a little more than where this mark shows in the case. BP and subs need compression to work correctly.
There are many people on You Tube that demonstrate this procedure. I recommend Mike Bellivue duelist 1954.
BP or subs do very well if loaded right. Clean thouroughly.

 

[2152hq]

I've loaded BP Sub's and BP for many yrs.
Just forget about measuring the weight,,unless you really just want to know what that value is.. 2Dog Max has it correct .

With a cartridge reload, the cartridge case and the bullet you choose to load in it will define how much of the powder is used.
It's what ever Volume will fill the case and be lightly compressed when the bullet is seated and crimped.
It can't be stated any other way.

Yes you can weigh that volume, but it may be different in a another case of different internal volume. Or with a different bullet of different weight.

Just don't leave any free space inside the case,,none.

If you want to reduce the powder charge then take up that extra unused space with card wads, cork wads, fiber wads, corn meal, etc.
Plenty of options there.

Yes the subs are still corrosive but some less than others.
Some people absolutely swear off Pyrodex as the Substance of the Devil.
It will eat right through the bbl while you are looking at it if you believe their posts.
The 'Holy Black' is the only way to go according to the purists. But that BP is hard to get in some places and substitute BP is not.

Clean the gun like you would if it was shot with regular BP and you'll be just fine.
Re-check them the day after for any problems. I do the same w/muzzle loaders.

I used to load BP Sub (American Pioneer) in 45acp for use in a MkIII Webley that had been shaved.
Great fun. Even ran some thru a Colt 1911 and it worked just fine too.
That particular Sub-BP created nearly no fouling so you could easily shoot 75 and more rounds with no problem.
But still the water clean up after wards.
Still have some of it and use in 44-40cal in a Win 73 and Colt Bisley.

Doesn't work too good in a flintlock though as it's harder to ignite than BP. But a percussion cap or regular primer does it easily.
A 58cal percussion repro CW Musket would put 3 patched round ball shots touching on a target at 50m with it.

Have fun!

 

[STORMINORMAN]

Home, home from the range...

Well, I'd have to say that it was a successful 1st foray into the world of NON-smokeless powders...

The 10 rounds were all fired outside with no problem regarding ignition: primers were regular Federal LPPs. The report (recoil, and the cloud of smoke) was impressive: I would judge the velocity to have been in the 900-950 fps range. There was no difference in the rounds with my typical light crimp and ones with a heavier one.

They basically shot to the POA at 25', grouped well, and no real difference from the two "control" rounds loaded with 9.3gr CFE-Pistol. Except a lot less smoke! I was impressed with the results from a performance standpoint.. After just 10 rounds the action was already getting a bit sticky, though: would not want to have been in the typical Wild West gunfight in the hills and need to reload 4 or 5 times without the opportunity to clean and lubricate. Bet those guys didn't carry a can of aerosol gun cleaner or a bore brush and hot water!

The 10 rounds of Pyrodex P did generate significantly more debris and fouling than any previous trip, and I have typically shot 50 to 75 rounds of smokeless reloads on quite a few occasions. Immediately after shooting them I brushed and scrubed the disassembled barrel (frame) & cylinder in hot running water, dried and applied some CLP. I forgot (duh!) to bring the Balistol with me to the range but re-cleaned the Pistelero with it upon returning home. There was still some minor residue present, but not much and what was there came off easily.

As far as the MBC coated bullet was concerned there was absolutely no indication of any leading, but it was only 10 rounds. I'll wait a day or two and re-inspect to see if there are any signs of corrosion.

All in all, a very worthwhile and informative experience. I would not question the effectiveness of using BP or a substitute like Pyrodex P in this configuration, but it is doubtful I'll be doing it again very soon: I have plenty of different smokeless powders to utilize and the cleanup is way, way easier! But it is nice to know it can be done and was a lot of fun, actually. Now, if I ever run into some REAL black powder in the future I'll know what to do...

Cheers!

P.S. Thanks to all for your kind consideration and comments, most of which I took to heart and benefitted from.

 

[shil]

Load Pyrodex just like black powder; by VOLUME and charge compressed around 1/16".