"ANTIQUE" Reloading Press

[BMur]

I collect old reloading tools....I have actually seen this Circa: 1880's reloading press before but couldn't touch the sale price. I found this one for a reasonable price but now I'm trying to find out who actually made it? Does anyone out there in reloading land know?
I don't have it in possession yet but I think it was designed to load 3 pistol cases or rifle cases or both at the same time. Black Powder of course.
I also don't believe that it's an early Ideal loader but my manuals don't date the 1880's so I guess it's possible. No mention of it in the 1891 manual.

Thanks,

Murph

[Ivan the Butcher]

That does not follow anything Ideal ever made. (Many editions of Lyman Manuals have a history section)

A couple of questions for when it arrives:

1) is there any cartridge designation on the 3 hole cylinders

2) does the cartridge get 3 each doing the same thing or are the 3 chambers for different stages of reloading? like Size, Bell and Seat?

3) are you sure of which cartridge it reloads?

Ivan

[BMur]

Ivan,
That’s a great line of questions.
I’m really actually kinda stoked about this press because they are extremely rare and were very expensive compared to the hand tools of that ERA.
Gang loaders like these were usually for Police or Armory use and loaded normally over 6 at once!
This one seems to be more for the basement loader in my opinion.
I know that the early Gang presses did not size or prime. They only pressed the bullet into the case for a fixed caliber and to a fixed depth.
I’m just thinking out loud here so bare with me.
I think it’s a 32 and 38 Long Center fire pistol loader. How these dies stayed with the press for 140 years is somewhat of a miracle?
I think the die is inserted from the bottom and that little button on the cylinder lines up the die into place until it is swung closed.
Pure guess until I have it in hand.
It seems to me though that it would load pretty fast.
I should have it in about a week or so.
I’ll post more photos then.
These are from the auction.

Murph

[Engineer1911]

Soon people will be asking the same questions about me and my reloading techniques. Inquiring minds have a need to know.

The fun in owning "old tools" is learning how they work and what they do.

[Ivan the Butcher]

About every year or so I load 100 rounds with Lee Loaders or Lyman 310 tools. It is all the same principles as modern loading, but the time consumption is horrible! But by doing it "The Old Fashioned Way" I have more respect for a single stage press, et alone my T-7 and Dillon 550 or the MEC 9000G.

The secret to good reloaded ammo is good primers and consistent powder charge. Case sizing and OAL have a lot of leeway to them. Small cases like 32 short or long are very temperamental on smokeless powders that are inconsistent, but happy with the same variable in Black Powder.

This should be interesting to follow through on!

Ivan

[MyDads38]

That's an interesting tool indeed. I'll be following this to find out more! :-)

[mikerjf]

Spinning that rotor up and down can't be fast! How about a time test for us?

[BMur]

I agree. I'm thinking it actually might be slower than the early Ideal number 1....Which actually loads exactly like the 310 tool.
With just a little practice you can load 3 rounds in 15 seconds so about 12 rounds a minute (no crimp applied) as long as you don't run into a jam, etc.

I'm guessing that it would take about 60 seconds to load 9 rounds with this early press.

So, if it is actually that slow? I would think that it "pre-dates" the Ideal Number 1 tool which would be "Pre-1884"... So, a very early Press. That's for sure. I don't know if I'll ever be able to identify the maker. It was probably made obsolete quickly. Like so many products were during that early period.

The only thing this old press might beat would be the earliest "kit" loaders that came in a cardboard box beginning in about 1872. Those kits were extremely slow but also quite valuable today.

So that would place it between about 1872-1880?

That makes sense to me so that's where I'll be searching. I can't see it selling on the open market when a simple hand tool would be faster and cheaper!

Murph

[Herky Bird]

That device kinda looks like one of those early bullet lubricators from before WWI.

[BMur]

I've started my research and found a lot of information about this press. It's called a "Screw Press" and they were very common in the 1800's and even later. They were used on Trains, in shops, on ships, and in the home... I'm going to focus on industrial Screw Press manufacturers of that timeframe and see if I can come up with something. I think that's going to hit the bell!

One author has been able to date them by design of the handles...Notice on my Press the two balls on either end? That design was an early design that dates to the 1860's through early 1880's. He also suggests that it might be maker marked under the base plate....Fingers crossed on that one.

I also noticed that the Ideal Pocket Shotgun loader used something very similar that lasted almost 60 years!.

Murph

[Ivan the Butcher]

The first illustration in post 10 (Ideal Pocket Closer) is a shotgun loader and is the last of a group for paper shot shells. It forms the roll crimp. The same function for the "all brass" shot shells it very different in appearance. I have 3 in my collection (2-16 gauge & 1-20) All of this type are mounted to the end of a bench or table with a type of "C-clamp" that is built in. These remained popular clear through WW I and in use well past WWII and were usually is a 3 piece set.

(My 20 gauge set was still new in the box when my mom found it at an antique/junk shop in the 60's, and bought it as a Christmas present for Dad in about 1964, However, Dad didn't trust reloaded ammunition and never used it!)

The middle 2 pictures in post 10 are presses for assembling bearings. Their decedents are used to these days and are usually called Arbor Presses (the still manufactured line of L.E. Wilson dies uses this type of press, whether screw jack or geared shaft) These are still popular with Bench Rest Shooters in the modern form.

When you look to putting a date on your press, you need to consider that both rimfire and early centerfire cases were not reloadable. And removable/replaceable Boxer and Berdan primers didn't start being used until about the time tong tools came into being. (look at "Everlasting" cartridges by Evans and by Sharp's under different titles).

Just some info to help you nail down your search.

Ivan

[BMur]

Well my tracking info says it should be here tomorrow.

Amazing research on the screw press. I guess it dates back to the romans and was used to mint coins.

I found over a dozen manufacturers in the 19th century in the USA alone , 3 in London , 2 in France, etc. So it was a very common design.

The two balls on the handle were designed to make it easy for the operator to spin the shaft and keep it free spinning. Probably easier to operate this press than it is to operate a modern single stage press. Definitely a much stronger crushing force with less effort. I’ll have to experiment once it’s here. The box weighs 9 lbs so it’s a heavy bugger.

Same principle as a bench vice and also used to seal hatches shipboard for water tight integrity.

Murph

[Green Frog]

You probably know this already but the Antique Reloading Tool Collectors’ Association website (ARTCA.com) has a lot of enthusiasts who can probably help with information about your press. Also, on Castboolits.com (yeah, I know they spell funny) there is a forum called Vintage Reloading Tools where a few of the same crowd hang out.

Froggie

[BMur]

Hey Charlie!
I was hoping you knew who made it?
I tried the collectors website but that site seems to be having issues. I’ll keep trying. Can’t wait to see this press.
Plus, I sort of want to wait til I have it in hand and evaluate it?
I’m really hoping it’s maker marked under the iron base plate! That would help a lot. Lots of questions I also have that should be answered for the most part once I have it, can dissect it, and can present better photos to the reloading forum. Maybe we can figure out how it works, etc.

Murph

[Green Frog]

BMur, i don't have a clue. if you're still having problems with the ARTCA site, try logging out all the way then starting from scratch. It tends to be picky at times. The Vintage Reloading Tools forum on Cast Boolits is a good place to catch Ken if you can't get to ARTCA, and maybe he can help you get in, or at least offer suggestions about your tool.

Froggie

[2152hq]

Is there a chance the press is for reloading one of the larger shotgun gauges,,8, 6, or 4ga.
I note by your measurement of the die that the bore must be around an inch+ (?)
The extra triple hole dies might be incidental to the original press and made up later to make use of it when no big bore shotgun was around anymore.

The de-prime/re-prime of the shotshells was often done on a separate small hand press. Some of the smaller gauges had that built right onto the loading tool itself.
English made reloading tools will often feature these and the tools for the very large bore shotguns.

8ga was about the largest common gauge made in the US but Parker and some others did make some 6ga guns as well.
4ga is usually a Brit product.
Many of their hand reloading tools use the screw press feature in both cartridge and shotshell versions.

Just some thoughts.

[BMur]

It's all a guess until I have it in hand.....Tracking says its out for delivery so I'm parked on the porch with cup of coffee in hand...

I'm of the opinion that it's American made because of the Painted design and the lack of ornate features that are more common with British or French made products...They are definitely much more elaborate than our tools but I could be wrong.

The reason I'm thinking it's a pistol cartridge loader is two fold....The seller's measurements photo'd are without question .38 caliber.. 3/8ths of an inch is a 38 cartridge but it still could be a rifle I guess.

The dies in my opinion must be original because they have a taper milled into them....What I'm expecting to see is a female taper within that cylinder that matches the male taper on the die so it should fit into the cylinder as a form fit.( Like a Glove?) Sort of like a cartridge into a revolver cylinder....Just a guess?

We shall soon see.

With my luck it will turn out to be a banana peeler.


Murph

[Buford57]

My neighbor had a cider press that operated like that. Maybe yours is for crab apples?

[BMur]

Ok,
I'm gonna try to be brief but it's hard.... It arrived....It's a pistol (revolver) cartridge loading screw press.

It's marked 32 and 38 on the "BRASS" dies...The plunger is also brass. The rest of the Press is very thick Iron....The cylinder is very thick iron. It took me a while to figure it out but I think they way it works is you load the die from the top of the cylinder...There is a machined stop in the cylinder that matches the taper as I suspected on the die....but its loaded into the cylinder from the top, not the bottom like I thought.

That little button on the cylinder is a "window"...its not for alignment like I thought....As you crank down on the screw press the die is worked down into that window until the die boss is visible. That tells you the 3 rounds are seated to the proper depth when the two holes are perfectly aligned.

So, you then swing open the bottom flange and out drop the loaded rounds...

To load the die you insert the rounds under the bottom...It sounds awkward? but I tried it and it's easy. What I don't like is that there is no protection for the primer.....Just a flat base flange that is solid polished smooth iron....I suppose that would be safe? but I'm not gonna try it.....

It's an early loader so I guess they hadn't worked out the "safety bugs" yet.....It would easily load fast though because you don't have to run the screw press up more than 3 turns after pressing 3 rounds in order to load 3 more....All you do is open the flange and they drop out loaded and ready for 3 more. Also, the handle does "Free spin" like a top, like I thought, to make it easy to operate...It's very neat.

I have to clean it up some. It's a rusty mess.

Unfortunately, its not marked except for the caliber on the dies so my work is cut out for me regarding researching this contraption.

I emailed the seller this morning and he answered me about an hour ago....He said he has no knowledge of this loader but that he bought it about 30 years ago at an estate sale. So, this isn't going to be easy to identify the maker.

I'm now convinced it's pre-1880 though...the 32 and 38 die stamps are not specific to Long or Short so it's an oldee and the fit strongly suggest an early outside lubricated bullet.


Murph

[BMur]

Here’s a few more.

Murph

[BMur]

Oh,
One last thing about the Brass dies? Inside each chamber is a sharp tip conical shape to load same in the case. That’s exactly how the early lead bullets were shaped. So that also fits.

Murph

[Green Frog]

Hey Murph, would it be practical to do a cerra-safe casting of one chamber in each “cylinder” to get the dimensions of the intended cartridges?

Froggie

[Golphin]

Looks some what like my brass cork screw I found at a garage sale a few years ago.

[mikerjf]

Awesomely cool! I suppose the increased “screw time” is offset by the fact that you are doing 3 at once.

I can imagine a bigger loading-block based unit doing a whole box at a time. =:O

[BMur]

I agree. The screw press is very strong and could easily press a large number at one time with the right loading block design.

Charlie,
If you check out the photos the 32L and 38L with the Yellow X look like the inside of the 3 chambers for each die. So definitely an early round. The listing in this book is 1875.

Murph