Hornady FTX & OALs in 357 Magnum

STORMINORMAN · Jul 5, 2021

I certainly understand the significance of the recommendation(?) from Hornady and other sources about the use of trimmed (to 1.240") 357 Magnum cases in order to limit the OAL (to the "Maximum" of 1.590") in loading this bullet...

But I only see this as an OAL limit in so far as using them in lever action rifles, where there well may be feeding issues. Maybe typically is a better word?

In a bolt action rifle (Ruger M77) OR in a revolver with a generous cylinder, would not the old Maxim that "you can load 'em as long as they still fit" not apply?

So, I loaded (to the cannelure, of course) a few 140gr FTX bullets in untrimmed 357 Magnum cases: they are 1.620" long and fit in the cylinders of my magnum K-frames. As such, the pressures should be less than if loaded to the cannelure in the trimmed cases, should it not?

Just can't see where this is a safety issue: please advise if there is a flaw in my thinking... Have I missed something?

Cheers!

Eddietruett · Jul 5, 2021

As long as you followed a powder charge recommended by the manufacturer, you are good too go

BB57 · Jul 6, 2021

You didn’t miss anything.

The risk with the short factory loaded FTX cases is that some where down the road someone will set up the dies to load non FTX bullets to the cannelure in those cases - without checking the OAL and catching the fact they are short cases. That could potentially create an over pressure situation.

I regard them even less fondly than I do other non standard practices, like Federal and Blazer small primer pocket .45 ACP cases.

Krogen · Jul 6, 2021

I agree with BB57 ^^^^. I don't understand how Hornady can think short cases are an OK idea. Surely they understand people handload. After all, they sell components and handloading equipment. They must also realize their factory ammo isn't per SAAMI case specs. Why they think that's acceptable just baffles me.

BLUEDOT37 · Jul 6, 2021

STORMINORMAN, I agree with your reasoning.

No need to trim those 357 cases needlesly.

Curiously, all my modern J, K, & L frame S&W 357 revolvers have longer cylinders than my N-frame 357s & therefore accept a slightly longer max COAL".

That COAL" will likely not fit in a N-frame's cylinder comfortably, or, if just barely, would be a problem if you had any bullet creep from heavy recoil though.

I've never had any of Hornady's FTX in .357 but I have on other calibers/cartridges, that they make a similar recommendation, & never found a reason to shorten their cases either.

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STORMINORMAN · Jul 6, 2021

Thanks!

Thanks to all who have responded!

There are similar case trimming instructions for 44 Magnum and 45 Colt 225gr FTX bullets (.430" & .452"). For the 44 Magnum in both rifle and pistol loadings: for the 45 Colt in rifle only? A 265gr FTX bullet for the 444 Marlin rifle bullet has trim instructions. The 200gr FTX bullet for the 460 S&W Magnum is not even mentioned in Lymans 50th.

There is a 185gr FTX bullet in 45acp used in their Critical Defense (also, in the ZOMBIE!) line. I have always loaded it with the data for their XTP and never saw anything about trimming.

In the words of Vinnie Barbarino, "I'm so confused!"

Cheers!

P.S. I don't hunt with a 357 Magnum, so that box of 140gr FTX should last a lifetime!

gwpercle · Jul 6, 2021

Just to keep my life simple ... and less confusing ( I know how Vinnie feels) I simply refuse to reload any bullet that mandates I trim the case back shorter than normal . There are so many other bullets to choose from that don't require shortening brass back to less than normal .
After you trim them back ... now you stuck with short brass ...forever !
Gary

Hair Trigger · Jul 6, 2021

I'd still stick with the recommended load data for the FTX bullet even if you don't trim the cases. The length of the bullet from the cannelure to the base is longer than the length on the XTP bullet of the same weight, so it sits deeper in the case, reducing case volume even without trimming the case.

Looking at Hornady's load data, the FTX in the shortened case takes 1.1 grains less powder (using Accurate #9 as a reference) than it does in a standard length case using the XTP bullet of the same weight (140 gr.) to achieve the same MV. I don't see trimming 0.040" off a .357 case to make that much difference in powder load reduction, and don't really understand why it's recommended unless it has to do with chambering in a carbine.

I also don't really see any advantage to using the FTX bullet in a revolver. Sectional density is the same between the FTX and the XTP 140 grain, and the BC is only a tiny bit better, which the advantage would only show in longer range shots at higher MV's, as in a carbine.

Nevada Ed · Jul 6, 2021

The company with its new "FTX bullet" design, must have found a few revolvers that needed a short case for a "Correct" , safe, OAL.

If a long OAL of 1.620" will work in your weapon fine.......
I use that OAL for my lead bullets in a standard case but I just don;t understand
why the company did not design that bullet to work in a standard case
instead of having to use a short case with a OAL of 1.590".

Just that those FTX cases need to be marked and logged, if they are to be re-loaded, with different bullet styles.

STORMINORMAN · Jul 6, 2021

From what I can tell it was truly a lever action thing...? Initially?

They're right proud of the "LEVERevolution" thing in tubular magazines: and, probably rightly so? In 30/30, 45/70, 444 Marlin, etc., they did change things for a lot of hunters.

I think the pistol calibers (357 & 44 Magnum) were possibly an afterthought? As mentioned before, they do use this technology (FTX, FlexLock, FlexTip) in the Critical Defense and Critical Duty lines of premium SD Handgun ammunition. And for the ZOMBIES, of course!

Cheers!

BLUEDOT37 · Jul 8, 2021

Hair Trigger said:
The length of the bullet from the cannelure to the base is longer than the length on the XTP bullet of the same weight, so it sits deeper in the case, reducing case volume even without trimming the case.

Looking at Hornady's load data, the FTX in the shortened case takes 1.1 grains less powder (using Accurate #9 as a reference) than it does in a standard length case using the XTP bullet of the same weight (140 gr.) to achieve the same MV.

I don't see trimming 0.040" off a .357 case to make that much difference in powder load reduction...

I also don't really see any advantage to using the FTX bullet in a revolver.

As I mentioned I've never bought the 140gr FTX bullets so don't have any first hand data on the bullet but QuickLoad provides details on the bullet's overall length (BOAL) as well as the shank seating depth (SgD) when selected in the program.

QL lists these BOAL" / SgD" in a 357 Mag case that's trimmed to 1.290" with a 1.590" COAL:

140gr XTP: .605" / .305"
140gr FTX: .805" / .505"

That's a way larger difference than I've seen between other caliber FTX bullets & similar XTP bullets.

Hornady's Reloading Manual's pictures appear to confirm these differences.

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I don't know where you see your data from but this is what I see.

Hornady #8 & #10 pistol load data for these bullets loaded to 1300mv using AA#9:

140gr XTP= 12.5gr (1.590" COAL)
140gr FTX= 13.3gr (1.585" COAL)

How can a longer bullet (with more bearing surface) seated deeper in a shorter case (both resulting in less available case volume) require 0.8gr more powder to reach the same velocity!?

This make no sense to me. Does it to anybody else?

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In QL, FWIW, if you seat the 140gr XTP deeper by 0.040" (from 1.590" to 1.550" COAL) the pressure rises 3K psi using 13.3gr/AA#9. Higher with other powders.

If you put the longer 140gr FTX bullet in a shorter case QL is off the chart showing excessive pressure.

I don't hold QL's estimates as gospel, by any means, but their results make more sense in the direction they go than Hornady's.

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Typically the polymer plugs in JHP bullets is to provide uniform expansion by avoiding a clogged hollow point, besides making the bullet more streamline.

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Seeing that this FTX bullet is materially longer (if QL's dimensions are correct), than the same weight XTP bullet, I definitely wouldn't cut down the cases using the same load data.

And definitely slowly work up any load charges with the 140gr FTX bullet.

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Hornady FTX & OALs in 357 Magnum

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